Starting a DB Project

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Nope. Try again...

[Adrian Levi]

is there a reason why linen pieces are not used solely for cleating . I've seen firsthand how a misplaced (in perfect line with the grain) and much too long piece of linen can split a top up due to its shrinkage after gluing,meaning that its not weak stuff ?

I have always wondered about the diamond shape verses the square shaped cleats. That is until I heard about a test that was done by some Austrian college students using two identical tops. On one top two rolls of diamond shaped cleats where glued and the other had larger and thinner square shaped cleats. Adding vibration to the two in equal amounts, the square cleated top continued to vibrate 4 to 6 seconds longer than the diamond one consistantly over several experiments. Fine wood dust was spread around the edges of each top and again vibration was applied to the tops. The thin square cleated ones produced a more even and smoother and a bit faster movement of the dust when ****yzed. I would give serious consideration to the thinner and larger square cleats- just thought I would share that for what it's worth.

[Ruben E garcia]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Chuck's book is a book, not THE Bible on repairs. I do not agree with everything he says in that book about repairs and I do not want any of my basses repaired in that way. Just because it's written doesn't make it true! Follow what Arnold tells you, and for very good reasons.

I have seen more basses inside and out than most people and have seen along with that many styles of repair and modification. Fit all patches and pieces 100% dry before gluing and clamping them in. For me, I would rip out everything you have done and start over fresh and do it correctly. Just don't make things worse by damaging the bass while removing your recent work. Like Wayne said, you need the tools in hand before you start. In my opinion, this was a huge undertaking as your first project in bass repair. Did I say Undertaking? Sounds similar to Undertaker, the one who buries the dead. Don't kill your bass!

When I buy basses or take them in trade, one of the things I ask is who did the previous repairs on the bass. Depending on who, it might cost double or triple to re-repair everything or I might just refuse to deal with a particular bass if I feel it's too far gone. I don't always see everything in advance but I sure try to. Do not become one of the repair people that makes it on the 'blacklist' of luthiers and basses worker on by to avoid. We have enough of them already. Most of them in my book. Like the guy who advised you to use wood epoxy? Geeze.. Talk to the young luthier Jed Kriegel who just spent a year picking junk glue like this out of an old bass which became one of the major parts of the restoration. It shouldn't have as that glue does not belong within a mile of any bass. Have fun..

I don't want to be on anybody's Blacklist... I but I dough that my bass end up in your shop ever

[Ruben E garcia]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

Reasons why I believe diamond cleats are superior:

1) Grain crosses at a 30-40 degree angle, rather than 90 degrees, therefore less tendency to come loose from seasonal wood movement.

2) Much longer reinforcement per cleat; less cleats required.

3) Less stiffening, due to the shape and the way the edges are tapered.

4) Looks really pretty.

Of course square cleats have been used for centuries (as have diamonds), and they work ok. I just personally think diamonds are better, especially if the owner is female. (Private joke for Wayne)

Good point Arnold, I'm going to be replacing the squares cleats for diamond C, any Cleats sizes and spacing in particular work better than others???

[Ruben E garcia]

Originally Posted by Adrian Levi

is there a reason why linen pieces are not used solely for cleating . I've seen firsthand how a misplaced (in perfect line with the grain) and much too long piece of linen can split a top up due to its shrinkage after gluing,meaning that its not weak stuff ?

I have always wondered about the diamond shape verses the square shaped cleats. That is until I heard about a test that was done by some Austrian college students using two identical tops. On one top two rolls of diamond shaped cleats where glued and the other had larger and thinner square shaped cleats. Adding vibration to the two in equal amounts, the square cleated top continued to vibrate 4 to 6 seconds longer than the diamond one consistantly over several experiments. Fine wood dust was spread around the edges of each top and again vibration was applied to the tops. The thin square cleated ones produced a more even and smoother and a bit faster movement of the dust when ****yzed. I would give serious consideration to the thinner and larger square cleats- just thought I would share that for what it's worth.

ohhh well.... now it may be better to use square cleats Lol... I think I will have a drink before we get to the bottom of this issue

[Ruben E garcia]

Originally Posted by wayne holmes

Hi Ruben, I applaud your efforts. Ken makes some very good points.

I often think of my bass fishing mentor who said to me "if you want to become good at the sport of bass-fishing and really enjoy it, then you have to get the right equipment"

One thing that I have learned listening to Ken, Arnold, and all those who have been successful in luthiery is that you have to have the right tools.

As I say, I commend you for your efforts. I have not been doing luthiery work all that many years, but I am probably one of the oldest OFs on this forum and know aspiration and passion when I see it. I want to encourage you to get the tools that you need that will help you do the work that will better match your desire to do good work.

As creative as the magnets are, they have not done the job, IMO. You can see in the first pictures that the cleats don't fit the surface of the bass top as they should.

I recommend that you stop everything, remove the cleats, get the right clamps and start all over. And, I recommend, as I did once before, that you seek help before you attempt anything. When you tell us what you are going to do, then we can tell you what tools you will need and will tell you how to do it. You have also received books that show you how to do repairs and the tools needed.

I have to be perfectly honest with you Ruben. You have, at your request, the help that you need. However, if there is one common error in your approach to luthiery that has once again surfaced, you are not paying enough attention to the guidance given you.

Yes, given what you have used to accomplish the cleating, they do look sorta good, but you can do better work and cleaner work. So, stop everything, get the right tools and step by step instruction and do it right- you'll be glad that you did.

The clamps that you need are expensive, but you can make some for just a few dollars.

Before you install the soundpost patch, it will be important that you get all the cracks repaired correctly. Also, if you plan to replace the bassbar, the top needs to be in good shape first to include a proper reshaping in most cases.

Ruben, what you are attempting to do here is work on an instrument that is usually done by an experienced bass luthier.
This is not to say that you can't do it, but an experienced bass luthier is going to have the tools and equipment before he/she will attempt this kind of work. Many of us have had to learn this the hard way. The hard way is what you are doing now and this is the reason I am asking you to stop everything, get the right tools and equipment and begin again.

An example for what I am trying to say- Why is it that good bass luthiers can repair a crack to where you can't see it? They get the result because they have the right tools and equipment. They, also, have listened to their mentor's instructions on how to do the repair correctly.

Ruben, Hope this helps. Good luck.

wayne


wholmesbassviol@yahoo.com
www.holmesbassviol.com

are u saying this types of clamps:



http://www.stringrepair.com/images/d...During_110.JPG

http://www.stringrepair.com/images/db3/ff6.JPG

[Thomas Erickson]

Lipstick?

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by wayne holmes

... make sure to get a good fit- use sandpaper under the cleat to get the cleat to match the top surface or you could lipstick or chulk it.

Lipstick? On bare wood? Wayne have you taken a little too much of your gran's corn syrup again?

Ruben you don't absolutely need long throated clamps for cleats if you are careful. Strong magnets and weights will do just as well.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Adrian Levi

... two identical tops ...

Well, before anyone gets excited about the Austrian research, they better read it first and then make up their own mind. Gotta link or is it hearsay?

[Adrian Levi]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Well, before anyone gets excited about the Austrian research, they better read it first and then make up their own mind. Gotta link or is it hearsay?

Hearsay , and no link ..... IMHO as you suggest , no two tops are the same and I cant imagine how a diamond cleat can really be better or worse that a rectangular one . There are so many huge forces in play when a bass is in tension that I'm guessing a soundpost and bassbar are the crucial elements in top strength and small pieces of glued spruce seem really the 'band aids' ( I am by no means saying that they are not a necessity) of repair whereas patches are 'true structural implants' that play an integral part in real top strength . I am still in the early stages of learning to repair instruments so I really cant draw on the experience that you have but I'm sure that you have done some excellent repairs using cleats other than diamond shape in the past.

[Thomas Erickson]

Somehow, I tend to think that cleats of the same mass, in the same places, are going to sound the same. Call me crazy.

That said, from my perspective diamonds are going to: a) give you more crack-coverage for your given cleat mass, and b) anything that avoids putting things parallel to the grain sounds like a good idea to me.

Wayne - maybe it is just a matter of the instrument in question? Are diamond cleats lipstick on a pig if we're talking about a cheap factory bass?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Here's my belief about the "scientific" instrument makers/ repair persons: If their methods are so great, why aren't their instruments better than the "craftsman/intuitive" makers'? I attended a talk recently where a violin maker with 20 plus years using the plate tuning technique (and other ****ysis tools) recently abandoned it, and says his instruments are better than ever, because he pays closer attention to his own instincts. This is a world-renowned maker; he's kept records on every instrument he has ever made. His main thrust was that no matter what you do, the resulting tone of the finished instrument will still be a surprise most of the time. As regards cleats, I'll take my decades of observation and experience (and that of many of my colleagues) over somebody's experiment with glitter or sand. Also to be considered is the fact that basses are different from the rest of the violin family, in that their plates are under much more stress because they are thinner in relation to their size, and because their huge width invites intense seasonal wood movement issues.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Oh, and Diamonds Are a Girl's Best Friend...

(sexist and dated--sue me)

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

Oh, and Diamonds Are a Girl's Best Friend...

(sexist and dated--sue me)

We can share a 'Cell' on that one..

And, Diamonds ARE Forever! Trust me, I did the Gig with her, twice!!

[Ruben E garcia]

I can’t really argue with any of you guys... about witch cleat work the best (Square, Diamond, feather, bevel)... I am 100% sure that there is not a perfect cleat... but different cleats show advantages and disadvantages (and some may be just bad) ... as long I don’t align the grain of the cleat with the top (that's just stupid) 45Deg, 30, and even 90 would do....by the way I am not discarding anybody’s point of view is supper interesting getting deep into the suggest I do have now a clear understanding of Cleats.

But where I really fail it was to get the cleats correctly fit to the top… it doesn’t matter how good a cleat can be… it won’t hide the fact that is not correctly jointed to the top…. Mistake a do believe is a product of not enough pressure applied, not well fit between top and cleat, and possibly I am not using the right procedure for the glue up… Hide glue is unlike any other glue that I ever work…. That Crucial moment… I was:

1) Applying glue to the top
2) Applying glue to the Cleat
3) Rubbing both
4) Waiting few second for proper bounding (I read to use a hair dryer to heat up the glue a this stage, or may be a should use a heat gun “may be too hot???”)
5) And clamping….


Now let me see if I do understand 100% are u guys talking about opening the crack again…??? It isn’t close enough…. Or just re-cleat?

Ps I am leaning towards Diamonds.... J my wife would agree with me J

[Thomas Erickson]

If the crack in question isn't closed up ship-shape, no cleat is going to get it there - you have to do your recon and complete the mission before you call in the airstrike, yeah? Cleats don't repair basses - they just help keep them together...

[Ruben E garcia]

Originally Posted by Thomas Erickson

If the crack in question isn't closed up ship-shape, no cleat is going to get it there - you have to do your recon and complete the mission before you call in the airstrike, yeah? Cleats don't repair basses - they just help keep them together...

Hi Friend ... so what do u make from the satellite picture that I took... to me the crack is closed... it’s an old crack is being repair before. Dirt got inside, I use hot water to open and clean… I did apply some good pressure and hot glue to it… but it will never look like a new crack… ready for an air strike?

[Richard Prowse]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

We can share a 'Cell' on that one..

And, Diamonds ARE Forever! Trust me, I did the Gig with her, twice!!

Ah, Ken, I love Shirley Bassey!!!
I grew up listening to her. She's in a class of her own!
I wish I'd been there on those gigs. Why didn't you call me at the time?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Richard Prowse

Ah, Ken, I love Shirley Bassey!!!
I grew up listening to her. She's in a class of her own!
I wish I'd been there on those gigs. Why didn't you call me at the time?

They were in NY in the late '70s/early 80s. If she calls me next week, I still wont call you.. lol

A job is a job.. right?

[Richard Prowse]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

They were in NY in the late '70s/early 80s. If she calls me next week, I still wont call you.. lol

A job is a job.. right?

The 'why didn't you call me' thing was a bit of a joke.