" Name That Bass " aka "This OLD Bass"

[Ken Smith]

Hi guys, this is a thread I started on TB back in 2004. Since I am here now, I thought I would copy my own basic text of it over to here and if anyone feels up to it, continue on. If not, at least we have it here for reference. I have brought the text up to present time as many did make guesses in this 6 page thread but I don't think I am allowed to copy anyone else's replies over to here. I will sum up the findings so we can go on from there if you're in the mood.
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I got this Bass back in Feb, 2004. It has many flavors from all that have touched it. In March of '04 it went out for a full restoration and reconstruction. I am expecting it some time this year (2007)

Members are welcome to post their ideas as well.
Ask questions if you like as to what I might have seen inside that I can't show here or whatever.

Here is the the link posted on my 'site; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/name_that_bass2.htm ('Before' pics linked from there as well)

Let's have some fun with this old relic......

A major restoration was done around 1850 or so give or take 25 years. The Bass was old then !

The angle taper of the Back may not be original and could have been done later. This Bass was also slightly bigger from what I can see.
The Purfling on the Top runs out on each of the 6 Bouts as if it was 'greatly' worn from use and abuse or was slightly cut or trimmed about 5mm or less on each Bout.

Maybe the Back shrunk and the Ribs were shortened. The extreme curl of the Sycamore could have made the Bass shrink more than usual.
The Back however is not Purfled on the edges but rather has a faint hint of painted Purfling around all edges which runs out as well. The Back also has a thin Ebony strip inlaid down the center Seam which leads me to believe it was added later to fill the gap from shrinkage.

Who might have used such fine grade flamed sycamore for the back (28" wide,2 piece) and ribs or the tight grained Quartersawn Spruce with 350 growth rings within 14" of width (x2=28"wide) ?? Who could have demanded this top grade of wood way back then for a Bass when it could have made at least 6 fine Violins?

This Bass has had many repairs and modifications over it's long life.

The Varnish is original under the repairs except for some
touch-up with a reddish tint. The F holes are original and the Neck Block taper seems to be original as the Purfling is still there on the Top. The gentle lower Bout cut is original as well and this and the other features might help find it's origin.

Of course when the Top came off and we examined the Blocks, old Cross Bar Scars and Linings, we were able to figure out some additional possibilities. By the way, the flames of the Back and Ribs are twice as intense from the inside where there is no Varnish obscuring the figure. The wood is very dark on the inside indicating the Bass is quite old. I can pick it up easily in one hand despite its size as the old dry wood is beyond seasoned!

The total height of the actual Bass (without endpin) is 77" tall (6ft.5in.). It was probably an 'Eb' Neck and will be reduced to a 'D' Neck ending up around 76" or so after the new Neck graft.

It is more likely we will find the period and origin before the maker, if at all.

It would be great if we can always find the maker but with Basses not always being the main product of the shop as well as the Master/Apprentice situations in many shops, it is often that the Bass was made by other than the 'head honcho'. Therefore the makers hand is not always evident.

Just to clarify things, the work is being done by my long time friend and Luthier Paul Biase in NY. Other than Peter Eibert, he is my oldest acquaintance in this field and from the old school. I had just met Arnold and Jeff on line at TB shortly before I bought this Bass. Had it been a year later, I might have given the Job to one of them if they would have accepted it. I am glad Paul is taking his time on this. The buckled Ribs are very flat now in comparison as he has spent a lot of time fixing them.

Here are the pics of the Cheeks I made 3 years ago. The Cheeks will get thinned down slightly before the Varnish touch-up.

[Ken Smith]

Several TB members made guesses on this bass when I started the thread. Thanks to those that have so far. For interest, I have made a tally of countries mentioned as the possibilities. I will leave out the Makers names and just list the countries for now. The period from your guesses seem to be between c.1750 and c.1850 according to the makers that were mentioned. Again, the internal examination will tell us more (pre-restoration comment). Here's the tally in no particular order.

French - 3
English - 3
Tirol - 1
Yankee - 2
Bohemia - 2
Italian - 2

Some people made more than one guess and that's fine as we need to think out loud a bit here.
It would be nice to hear from all the luthiers out here tell us what points of a Bass helps them determine or guess the maker or school of making.

When I first showed the Bass to Paul Biase back in Marck of 2004 he used a 'black light'/ultra violet to check the Varnish. The Bass has an 'extra' coat of Varnish over the original Varnish completely over the entire Bass.
The top layer of Varnish seems to be Spirit based. Originally I gave the 'go-ahead' for Paul to take off the junk on top and let the original lighter golden Oil Varnish see the light of day again but after 3 years in restoration I have decided to leave it as-is and touch it up to match the Red-over-Gold as it does look beautiful.
Paul seemed at first glance to think it was from Northern Europe and not Italy as guessed by some. Most likely it's believed to be from England or France as they are just across the channel from each other.

The Purfling in the Top is European and so is the Back 'n' Rib wood. USA is most likely ruled out except for the 19th century repairs in New England with the Yankee X-Brace in the Back.
The Period of this Bass is estimated to be between the latter 18th century and early 19th century by Biase as well.

The Bass was about a 44'' String Length with its current neck. The Top Bout being 22in. across and with only about a 15mm neck-stand makes it extremely hard to play as well. This is maybe why the Bass was put aside for the last 80-100 years and not touched...... It's just too BIG! It is a very large 7/8 or small 4/4 Bass a.k.a. 'Full Sized'. You Guys can tell me from the measurements posted on my website just what it is. Originally I thought a 42" String length could not be achieved unless the Bass was "CUT" from the shoulders. Oops...... I said a 'No No' word... Sorry guys.... BUT, After Arnold restored both my Prescott and Morelli (two HUGE Basses) and was able to reduce those lengths, I took my newly acquired knowledge I picked up from Arnold and told Paul we can do just a Block-cut and get the job done.

[Ken Smith]

Origin/size English had been considered almost immediately by many. The Purfling on the top has beed identified as "Northern Europe". That leaves France and England. As you may or may not know, many French makers worked in England and visa versa in the early 19th century and maybe earlier.

Some English Violins were acutally made by French makers working in English shops. Some other English Violins were actually made in France but completed and Labeled in England to fill demand.
My refrence: "250 Years of Violin Craft in Soho" by Adam Whone.

It pays to study! You can never read or see to much. We have a short life in which to learn about the 400+ year history of our Instruments, their creators and makers.

Pre-Panormo We were looking at early English from 1750 or after and maybe as new as 1825-1850 but until the top was off, the Mystery continued. One interesting thing is the Back repairs. The original Cross bars were replaced with an X-Brace system. Scars from the old Bars are visible. This Bass came here at least 100 years ago if not more but the X-Brace looks very old and from about 1850 if not earlier. This Repair of course was done in 19th century New England by followers of the Prescott School. The Maple Scroll, although varnished over in dark red is most likely original to the Bass as it matches in character as well.

Ruled out! Prescott was ruled out because it looks nothing like a Prescott. The Top has northern Europe style purfling. The back is un-purfled but has some faint spots of painted purfling. This has been identified as "English Ink".

The Wood is Extremely Fine grained Spruce of some sort. 350 growth rings within 14" at the lower bout. A bit too fine for North American Wood I believe. This is "Ice Age" type growth rings from Europe. The Back and sides are beautifully Quartered English Sycamore with Spaghetti type Flames.

I believe Prescott and his followers mainly used Wood from the New England area as he and Dearborn had their own lumber business.

This wood appears to have been expensive by comparison at the time this Bass was probably made. The Bass is also very big and may have been a special order. I can't imagine a maker building a Bass like this with near "full sized" measurements and such high quality wood usually found only on the best Violins and 'Cellos.

For these reasons, I don't think it was made in America but was brought here on a ship at least once if not twice possibly by a Musician playing on the Trans-Atlantic Ships as the previous owner came over later with the Bass "as-is". The Ship Musician may have had it repaired here on one of his journeys and took it back on his next trip after being fixed and then maybe sold to the Man that brought it over for the last time.

I speculate that due to a combination of being so big n difficult to play, being in dis-repair and it being cheaper and easier to get a regular sized easier playing Bass in good condition in those days. Maybe that's why the Bass has beed un-touched for the last 100 years or so.

This is all just a guess but a very possible situation or maybe just a fictional story...... Gee.."If this Bass could only talk" !! Oops....... sorry Stanley....lol

[Ken Smith]

Scroll/Varnish The Maple Scroll, although varnished over in dark red is most likely original to the Bass as it matches in character as well. I noticed that when leveling it for the new Cheeks I added.
The Varnish on the Scroll also looks different.

The Red in the Varnish is not original either. The Original Varnish looks to be a Golden Brown. The rest of the color is age and oxidation.

I think this Bass traveled across the Ocean a few times on the Great Ships of the 19th century. The Back and Scroll repairs look to be mid 19th century but the Bass is reported to have come over from Europe from the previous owner b4 me around 1908. We have a Yankee style X-Brace dated c.1840 to c.1880. I have the 3-string Tailpiece as well. The 4 Gears that came with this Bass looked to be early to mid 19th century with one of them just slightly different as if to have been added later on that Scroll. The holes from the 3 and 4-string are all the same size as if they did the conversion, moved two of the gears and added a forth leaving the lowest gear (E) in it's original spot.

Old Neck Repair It had one of those ugly neck splices in a 'u' shape after carving somewhere in the middle of the neck. Maybe the heel of the neck is original to that neck block but I doubt that as well as being original. They must have spliced the neck/scroll on when the old one broke off and was un-repairable. Much easier than a neck/scroll graft for sure.

Previous update When the Mystery Bass was first opened in Jan. '05 Paul called me at my Shop. When I said hello to Paul on the phone that very day, I heard some screams like Tarzan was having a bad day.. I asked "what was that"? He replied "your Bass, I just opened it up". He mentioned he was thinking for weeks which way to attack this Bass as the Ribs have to be fixed first along with either the top or back so the other plate can come off and have something to go back to.

Now for the discovery, The Bass currently has an 'X' Brace which we know was a 19th century repair in Mass or New Hampshire. We also know there is a set of scars from earlier cross bars that were the original, so we thought... BUT........ There is a "third" set of scars from even earlier Bars in this Bass that is quite unusual. Mainly the Bottom, widest point (originally about 29" wide) had a pair of thin TWIN Bars running across the Bass. This he said is OLDE English as in English Gambas.... The English made Gambas as far back as the 16th century. This Bass however is most likely no earlier that the mid 18th century as far as we can see for now..

Does any one here have any experience with these olde Gambas with Twin Cross bars at the Bottom?

>> More info to come if and when it develops.......

[Ken Smith]

Today I went into NY to go over the measurements and set-up specs for the completion of this Bass. The lower and middle Ribs are glued to the Blocks and the back lightly 'tacked on'. The Upper Ribs still attached to the old Neck Heel/Block. Another piece was added to this old Block to give room to lower the Neck-set. This will bring the Bridge up about 1" closer. We measured several ways including where the hand hits the Shoulder so we have the notes in the right place like hitting the F# before the octave G. The average 42" String length 'D' neck Bass has a measurement from the Nut to the base of the Neck of 18" or so. Mine was at 19" and was closer to an Eb neck I would imagine. With an 18" measurement and the Neck down 1" or so in the Block, we will have a 42" String length without cutting the shoulders at all. Just the tips of the Top by the Block will be cut. Also, the FFs are almost 190mm wide at the upper Eyes. The Bar is set in a bit but after measuring everything today, it looks like the Bridge used will be about a 165mm width at the feet. This means I can cheat the bridge easily if I want to adjust/fine tune the String length or stop positions of the notes around the neck/shoulder area.

Conclusions to date (we think!).. Bass is English c.1800 or so and we will not be cutting the Shoulders..

Of course when this Bass is done, I will update the final specs. I hope as well that one day I will know who actually made it if that is at all possible. To date from all the people around the world I have consulted, not a single person has seen anything like this Bas as far as the shape, bouts and FFs combined.

[Ken Smith]

I know we did this to death a couple of years ago on TB but to date we are no closer to finding a maker than we were then.

In closing there I posted pics of my Top and another one that I think is similar. Also, both Basses have similar large type dimensions. I will now post both Top and Back shots side by side and just ask all of you to point out "How close they to look in style and features as well as the differences they appear to have"?

Please don't be so shy. This is not a test to retain your Forum membership..

[Brian Glassman]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I know we did this to death a couple of years ago on TB but to date we are no closer to finding a maker than we were then.

In closing there I posted pics of my Top and another one that I think is similar. Also, both Basses have similar large type dimensions. I will now post both Top and Back shots side by side and just ask all of you to point out "How close they to look in style and features as well as the differences they appear to have"?

Please don't be so shy. This is not a test to retain your Forum membership..

Well, I don't know. The shape of the upper and lower bouts look completely different to me. Somehow the shape of your mystery bass reminded me of that Houska article on the Prokap bass. http://www.contrabass.co.uk/spring98.htm I know you don't think it is related to the Prokap bass, but something about the way the c bouts flow into the lower bouts seem more similar than this bass. I get a Bohemian vibe anyway.

BG