ANOTHER Bass ID Thread

[LouisBarnes]

I've just really started playing DB after what seems like an age playing electric. This bass has been in the family for a few years, as my sister needed a better bass for orchestral performances. She has since stopped playing altogether due to time commitments, so in steps the jazz loving brother! I've installed a Fishman Full Circle and a new bridge, to allow a lower action, and it sounds fantastic (and VERY loud). The people at Bridgewood & Neitzert (where we bought the bass) reckon it's German, approx 1920s. That seems like a good estimate to me, but I thought I'd ask here and see if I can find out anything more about it.

Thanks
Louis

[Ken Smith]

The Bass looks well antiqued to me. I do not see any visible repaired cracks which would be more common than not on Germanic factory Basses of that period. I would not jump to dating a Bass by its tuners alone which actually look older than the Bass to me. If this is 1920s, then the Varnish has been gone over at least. Show us some more pictures of the Ribs (full side profile) to help date the Bass.

[LouisBarnes]

Thanks Ken, the ribs are generally in good condition, we've had to have a couple of minor cracks repaired (lower ribs in the first picture) but it does seem like it might be younger than initially thought.
I've had to take these with the flash on so it's a little tricky to make out what's going on.

[Ken Smith]

I can see that the Bassbar is fairly bright white colored unoxidized looking wood. What does the back and ribs look like from the inside?

You can buy brand new Basses made in Eastern Europe from some of the Bass shops in USA today that look antiqued just like this. The Gears do look older but do not match what I would expect to see from a Bass of the same age.

To do some comparisons which is how most people judge things I will show you some Basses of various ages and pedigrees (or not) to see both natural and artificial aging.

2 Shen Basses I have from 6 years old to 10 years old.

Two possible Hungarian Basses that were both sold to me as being about 50 years old or more but we believe they are younger than my two children of 16 and 20 years old. A 5-string converted and a 4-string with a new extension.

Here are two German Basses from two eras. Pollmann 1978 and Morelli 1910-20 which is where they placed your Bass date-wise. Look also at the pre-restored pics to get a closer look of 80-100 years of natural aging.

Moving over to Italy, here are two 20th century Basses by two great makers. One is by Oreste Candi, 1936 (his only known Bass) who made mainly Violins and the other in two sets of pics is Oreste Martini, 1919 who was documented as making 45 Basses. Both having the same first name by coincidence only. This being the earliest dated Martini Bass and best example I have seen and heard about of his work. The Martini did have some Varnish restoration work done back in 1999 but still maintains its aged look.

Please examine these links/pics carefully and see the difference between natural aging/markings and artificial pre-aged markings such as scratches, dents and varnish touch-ups.

The Back of the Morelli aged naturally while the Bisiach seems to have had some 'help' along the way. Very very convincing to most people but the Bisiach could almost pass for a 100 years old to the same people that would 'buy' the date and label.

I have seen many Basses for sale recently from USA, Canada and all over Europe that had very old tuners but artificial type aging. Most often the prices of these Basses are too good to be true. In actuality, the price is usually on the high side to say the least.

[Matthew Tucker]

Please examine these links/pics carefully and see the difference between natural aging/markings and artificial pre-aged markings such as scratches, dents and varnish touch-ups.

Ken, I find it hard to examine any of your basses in real detail, much as I'd like to, because the pics are not that big. eg: Looking at the pic of the Bisiach back is like looking at the bass from ten feet away. They're nice pics of lovely basses, but IMO you can't really expect us to see the detail that you can see.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Ken, I find it hard to examine any of your basses in real detail, much as I'd like to, because the pics are not that big. eg: Looking at the pic of the Bisiach back is like looking at the bass from ten feet away. They're nice pics of lovely basses, but IMO you can't really expect us to see the detail that you can see.

Right click on any pic. Choose 'save image as..' then click save on the lower right 'save image' window. Then, on the 'Downloads' window click 'Open'. After it opens in the 'Window Picture and Fax Viewer' use the + feature to blow up the pic. Clarity may be a problem but still, you can blow up the pic. I do this exact same thing when I look at other Basses on the 'net. You don't need perfection to catch a fake. You just need experience.

A few years ago from pics just like the ones I posted I sent pics printed off my computer to Paul Biase. They were worse than the ones on my website. He called me and said, "I know that Scroll, that's a new Hungarian Bass"!.

If you want to count the growth rings of a piece of wood, then you need the pics to be clean when enlarged. For seeing the style of the Bass, it is not necessary. What you can see is just that. What you can see.

I have given my opinion on many Basses here online with even less to go on than the pics I have shown of my Basses. It just takes time, experience and a good eye. Not great focus though, just good enough. I wear glasses to see distance and reading but shapes and color, I can see half asleep.

[LouisBarnes]

As far as I know the bass had a new bass bar/sound post/bridge when it was at Bridgewood & Neitzert. The back and ribs are a lot darker than the bass bar, but it doesn't look like the inside as aged as much as the outside "appears" to have done. One of the cracks in the ribs is clearly pre-refinish, and the ribs feel like they've "moved" and twisted a little over time. It's so difficult to tell what's going on under the varnish (which seems a trifle thick).

Comparing it to your photos, it's definitely had some antiquing done to it, but it seems like they've done such a good job that it's hard to tell what is or isn't authentic aging. It doesn't look as old as the Morelli when comparing the backs with each other, but it looks older than the Pollman. I find that the gloss varnish really throws me off though!

[David Powell]

I'm definitely no expert, but my first impression looking at those photos was that I've seen basses from the 40's and 50's that looked older than that one. It's a beautiful instrument in any case. The flaming and coloration remind me of Ken's Pollmann a bit.