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Old 03-16-2011, 10:23 PM
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Default William Tarr (b.2/21/1808 ~ d.7/10/1891)

At this time I would like to highlight the Manchester maker William Tarr. Although we have talked about him on occasion I feel that now is a good time to put this maker in the spotlight.

I posted a few days ago on the English Basses general thread about 'a whopper landed'.
Quote:
This Whopper is not a burger. It is a 4/4 bass by William Tarr from Manchester, 1929 #8. Tarr is recorded as producing 206 basses, mostly Gamba models. This bass has Violin corners and a flatback as with all W.Tarr basses that I know of.

It is written that at one music festival in Dublin where the Gentleman's Orchestra of Manchester performed, all of the 9 basses were made by Wlm. Tarr. This later became the Halle Orchestra. This and the other basses are known as the Halle Tarr basses. Full sized violin models.

In 1959 this bass was cut down a bit by maybe 2" or more in length and an inch or so in the width of the bouts. Recalling the measurements I took last night, the lower bout is currently 29" or so, the upper is 23"+ and the center almost 17 1/2". This was a HUGE bass but, with the flatback and the upper angle break, quite playable.

The Neck stand looks 100% original, out maybe 20mm. The joint is a wide slightly dovetail but mostly a hidden mortise with only maybe 1-2mm of difference between the the Top and the Neck as far as dovetail taper goes.

The Gears, original Manchester Tarr Gears, not unlike Baker's in construction but a different design. In fact, the Gears Arnold used for the copy of my Cornerless are actually Tarr copies but mis-named by the dealer that sells them. Once i get pics up in a few weeks, all of this will be clear.

Using a UV light, magnifier and flashlight, I cannot find a graft in the Neck/Pegbox joint. The Scroll is the real deal, Early Tarr. The FFs are about the most beautiful Norther English FFs I have ever seen. Long, wide, slightly slanted and beautifully cut. The Top is 'highly arched.

The sound, fasten your seat belts. This IS an Orchestra Bass. Deep Organ lows, smooth and sweet mids and LOUD.

I have seen one other Tarr like this but still full sized, not Cut. I do not know for sure is that one was a Halle bass but surely the same exact model, 4/4 violin flatback.

Both the Top and Back are made in 4 pieces. One main book-matched piece and narrower split and matched wings that are cut thru in the C bouts. The Corners are very subtle on these models.

This model is the King of the Northern English models.

Now that I have had this bass here a few days I have discovered a few things between the instrument itself and reading up on the maker W.Tarr.

First off, depending on which Violin Books you have or have read you might or might not get his correct dates. The books with the correct dates are all out of print now. These are books by George Hart, W.M. Morris and Jalovec. It seems there are some incorrect dates in Henley, Plowright and Harvey. One book has him making his first bass in 1834 but Hart has him listed as 'by' 1829 (at 21 yrs old). That is the supposed date of this bass.

In Elgar, a bass-only book he mentions that Tarr made both Viol and Violin models of which Elgar claimed to prefer the Viol. Maybe it was the size because of the two violin models I have seen now (1 pictured) and one other I have heard about, they are all full 4/4 model basses. The Viol model seems to be more of a full 3/4 or 7/8ths sized model as we call them today.

This particular bass I have here (#8 from 1829) is basically all original in its parts from what I can see. It was cut down about 52 years ago and the back shows purfling only in the c-bout area. On the top, the purfling was replaced in both bouts with similar looking material but not exact looking with a magnifier.

Now, looking inside the Back which is well oxidized in color and in fantastic shape as well I see that there are no cross braces in the bouts other then the center brace and the angle bend. Also, there are no scars or discolorations of this Back ever having braces there either. Maybe this accounts for the near mint condition of the Back.I do notice however that the center and outer flank joints have been re-glued at least once in some spots so maybe that's a sign of where the movement occurred. Also, this Bass has lived in the same UK climate all of its life up until 5 days ago when it was brought over to the States.

I know of a few other players that have Tarr basses in the Viol model and they seem well loved, all professional Classical/Orchestral players.

So, this is now the official place for discussions on Basses by Tarr who was also assisted at times by his sons Thomas, Joesph and Shelly. There were also at least two other makers of note that worked for Tarr and they include Cole and Briggs. Like in the case of Prescott being the most prolific Yankee bass maker, Tarr is the head of the Manchester bass makers as well.

Welcome to the official Tarr School on-line discussion thread.


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  #2  
Old 03-16-2011, 10:39 PM
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Cool Halle Tarr pics.. (Temps)

Here are a few pics we just took of the Bass but not the Pics we will use for the web page. Just a quick preview using our email camera skills.
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Old 03-21-2011, 11:23 AM
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Gorgeous bass!
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Old 03-21-2011, 11:41 AM
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nice bass!
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Old 03-21-2011, 03:44 PM
Eduardo Barbosa Eduardo Barbosa is offline
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WOW! I never seen a bass so big!
even the bigger ones I've seen don't come close to that one!
I wonder what it feels like playing that beast. Can't even imagine what it sounds like!
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Old 03-21-2011, 04:55 PM
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Thumbs up yup..

It's a beast but very playable. If not for the lack of a C-Extension presently I would use it next week on my Concert. I will be bringing it up to Arnold shortly for some set-up tweaks and possible a C-Extension to make it Orchestra ready, American style.
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Old 03-27-2011, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anselm Hauke View Post
nice bass!
you can be happy that you did not get this one:
http://www.thomasmartin.co.uk/sale_w...ouble_bass.asp
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Old 03-27-2011, 12:31 PM
Nathan Parker Nathan Parker is offline
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Man, these basses look amazing. I would love to give one a whirl one of these days.

So, my question is, why are they getting smaller? They all seem to have been cut down. What has changed since they were made that everyone reduces them in size?
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Old 03-27-2011, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Parker View Post
Man, these basses look amazing.
well, imho kens looks amazing, but toms............
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Old 03-27-2011, 02:50 PM
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Exclamation this one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anselm Hauke View Post
you can be happy that you did not get this one:
http://www.thomasmartin.co.uk/sale_w...ouble_bass.asp
To my eye and from the basses I have seen from Tarr, Briggs and Cole (mostly in pictures) I would have to push this one into Briggs's corner more so than Tarr.

The Slant of the FFs' looks more Briggs and nothing like Tarr but slightly Cole but not. The Scroll is more like Briggs as well. The Gears are Tarr style but that is more than likely what was available then up there in Manchester.

I have seen this on Martin's restoration page as well and yes, I am glad it's not mine. I would not buy something like this across the pond unless it was to die for and affordable or under market, whatever that price would be!
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Old 03-27-2011, 02:53 PM
Nathan Parker Nathan Parker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anselm Hauke View Post
well, imho kens looks amazing, but toms............
I like it. What it lacks in symmetry, it makes up for in character. Visually speaking, that is. I have no idea what it sounds like.
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Old 03-27-2011, 03:01 PM
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Lightbulb getting smaller?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Parker View Post
Man, these basses look amazing. I would love to give one a whirl one of these days.

So, my question is, why are they getting smaller? They all seem to have been cut down. What has changed since they were made that everyone reduces them in size?
When 'Solo bass' became more popular it became evident that these bigger shouldered and full sized basses were just too big to get around on. Also, once you play an easier to manage 3/4-7/8, the idea of having a full sized and or full shouldered bass becomes less by the minute!

Playing the Orchestra music on a big bass is also not as much 'fun' these days as the demand is quite high. Economically, most your professionals shopping for a new bass to get 'that' orchestra gig wants the same bass to play both excerpts and solo on. Prices of these classics today also make it harder to own more than one expensive bass as well.

The most desirable basses today are those with 'the sound' and easy to play.

Many players that have played on 4/4 type basses for decades look forward to down sizing in measurements but not sound. Those players however that have landed a good steady job in a section are also trying to keep up with these powerful organ tones biggies so they sometimes in the aftermath, shop for that big monster that no one will mess with.

In the higher priced basses I have sold as many or more bigger basses than 3/4 or modified style 7/8ths over time. The bigger ones usually, but not always has that extra floor shaking quality that impresses all the players around you. This includes the podium, violins and brass as well. I have received complements from across the stage many times. Hardly ever though with a smaller bass in hand.
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Old 03-27-2011, 03:10 PM
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Thumbs up sounds like..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Parker View Post
I like it. What it lacks in symmetry, it makes up for in character. Visually speaking, that is. I have no idea what it sounds like.
It would be hard to describe unless we have both together heard the same basses that we can compare it to.

The sound is thick and organ like but sweet on top, not dry at all. It also sounds old and relaxed. My Panormo is similar but not as 'wet' in the sound. Both are silky though but describing sound is like describing taste. Not so easy as we all perceive things individually. The Tarr to my ears has more of a melodic Italian tone across the full range of the bass. The Panormo is maybe more floor shaking and sweeter on top but dryer in the middle.

The flat back of the Tarr along with its slightly reduced size feels to me easier to play and get around than the Panormo mainly because I am more of a 3/4-7/8ths player than a 4/4 huger. The slightly wider bouts don't seem to be a problem either considering its size as compared to the 4/4 Panormo which was also slightly reduced at the Block and in its length.

Still, if left with only one bass to play, I would welcome either the Panormo or Tarr with open arms. Opened a bit wider than usual..lol
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Old 04-29-2011, 03:39 PM
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Lightbulb Halle Tarr Tailpiece

I just received the Tailpiece that was taken off the Tarr when converted back to 4-string from the previous 5-string modification. There is an extra smaller hold drilled for the A string that is just under the Brass inlay.

There is a lower brass circle with mother of pearl inlay at the bottom still intact plus an empty cutout from a missing crest at the top plus a center inlay partially filled in. I would love to know what was in there. Always a mystery..
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Old 05-02-2011, 09:30 AM
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Interesting about the lack of internal back braces. In a Lott bass I have been studying here, the cross braces (apart from the centre brace) are only about 1cm tall and wide. The back's in reasonable condition. Perhaps cross bracing isn't as necessary as we think? Certainly won't keep a centre seam together if it wants to open up. When i think about it, the main reason i'm putting braces in my current build is to give the flat back a bit of convex "shape".
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Old 05-02-2011, 12:28 PM
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker View Post
Interesting about the lack of internal back braces. In a Lott bass I have been studying here, the cross braces (apart from the centre brace) are only about 1cm tall and wide. The back's in reasonable condition. Perhaps cross bracing isn't as necessary as we think? Certainly won't keep a centre seam together if it wants to open up. When i think about it, the main reason i'm putting braces in my current build is to give the flat back a bit of convex "shape".
Let the Back open if it needs. If over braced and the center can't open, something else will open or split.

Can we see that Lott? Are those the original braces in there?
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Old 05-02-2011, 05:19 PM
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Not great photos I'm afraid:

Lott:



bracing at the break:



And in the lower bout. Looks original to me, but I didn't open up the bass to look closely.



Perhaps the bracing is a little bigger than 1cm but I was surprised when I looked inside how insubstantial it all looked.



Whitehead extension:




Last edited by Matthew Tucker; 05-02-2011 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 05-28-2011, 01:35 AM
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Cool Tarr..

Back on the Tarr subject, I just brought it home last night from Arnold's with its new chromatic C-Extension, beautifully made and mounted if I may add. With the Season just about over, I might try it on one of the summer concerts and see how I get around it. I just have to do a few personal tweaks with the set-up, as usual.

As soon as I can get my son Mike to take some pics and get the page up, I will fill in its data and have it posted on line. This particular Tarr is a piece of British history.
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Old 05-28-2011, 08:21 PM
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Lightbulb Custom Gears..

In doing the C-Extension the Plates and Gears were removed from the Bass. The Plates have fused housings for the Gear shafts to slide in to. One Gear might be an old replacement but the one with the milled shaft was done to put a fifth gear around the shaft inside the pegbox as the bass was used as a 5-sting for quite some time and then recently converted back to 4-string.

My Panormo School was also a 5er at one point modified with a 5th gear at the TP and the ball end of the string anchored in the pegbox. I have also seen two old 3-string basses modified to 4-strings that way as well. One was a Prescott and one a beautiful Goffriller that I tried to buy when I was younger. Both those bass had their original 3-gears in the pegbox. The Panormo still retains its original plates and the 3 original Baker gears, with a 4th one added later, not quite matching 100% but close enough. The original center hole in the plates from its 3-string days is still visible under the gears.

I just thought it would be interesting for historical purposes to show that while Baker gears (and a few others in his time) flourished in London, the Manchester school up north headed by Tarr had their own metal works of art. Side by side, the Tarr gears win as the most beautiful I have seen combined with their plates.

Note: Pictures courtesy of Arnold Schnitzer.
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  #20  
Old 07-04-2011, 10:10 AM
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Arrow ok..

Here is the new Page on the Tarr. The pics were done against a wall and not the usual mahogany door and with flash. The pics came out quite dark but the bass is dark as well. We might in the near future re-take the pics in attempt to get some more light on them.
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/tarr/
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