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  #1  
Old 09-28-2009, 08:00 PM
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Cool Panormo School Basses..

I am looking to find as many pictures of genuine Vincenzo Panormo basses as possible, preferably London made. I would also love to see at least one Bass made by his recorded assistant William Taylor, made either in the Panormo shop 'as a Panormo' possibly or in Taylor's own shop. I have read that most of his work is unlabeled.

Over the years I have seen quite a few Basses called a Panormo but in most cases, the attribute was wishful thinking at best. One English Bass I once had made in either the Dodd or Betts shop had a quite a few Italian features and one of those common to the work of Panormo. In the shop of John Betts he made instruments as ordered and with the materials given to him. He was also to complete the work within a given schedule. Work like this I would not consider a true Panormo as they were not of his design or made of his chosing all around. That being said, there are many instruments out there by his hand attributed to that Shop and not Panormo.

On the other hand, I have seen a few Panormo-esque Basses made around his period in London or slightly after that might or might not be Panormo.

A true V. Panormo to my understanding has a round back with an upper angle break. Those that I have seen attributed to him with Flatbacks are at best made in another shop or possibly with his assistance but not a Panormo made Panormo Bass model. There are Basses out there attributed to his sons Joseph and George as well. I assume the same percentage of error in those attributes as having a 'famous' instrument is much more interesting than one of no name at all!

So, point me in the the direction of some pictures of Panormos if you can find them.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:27 PM
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Anselm Hauke Anselm Hauke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
So, point me in the the direction of some pictures of Panormos if you can find them.
ok, what about this one:
http://www.alanmolitzdoublebass.com/instruments.htm

i bet you already know this:
http://www.gallerystrings.com/customers/panorno.htm
and this
http://www.jdhillmusic.com/master/panormo/panormo.html
and this
http://www.davidjgrossman.com/picture7.htm

george p.?
http://www.knooren.nl/uprights/instr18/index.htm

attached: george luis p.?: (can´t remember where i found it...) (edit: i did remember: http://www.greatbandslive.com/uprightbass.cfm)
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Last edited by Anselm Hauke; 09-29-2009 at 01:43 PM.
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  #3  
Old 09-29-2009, 01:53 PM
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Cool links..

Thanks for the links. I am mainly interested in the Round Back models by 'old' Panormo, Vincenzo. I have never seen one that was Flatback and authentic. The Grossman Bass I think is a Lott, not a Panormo. The outer linings and other features look more Lott/Dodd style than anything else to me.

The Molitz/Gage bass is beautiful as is the one from Gallery. The Jack Hill(Filo/Martin) Bass is nice I assume but the pictures do not do it justice. I am sure it sounds great because I know who bought it and he's very picky.

Those three look like the real deal. The 5-string Gagliano in the Elgar book is actually attributed to either George or Joseph Panormo. It is a 4-string now once again.

I have here in my posession a Panormo (or School) Bass that had been re-varnished when it came in for sale and also needing a huge restoration. The Varnish was touched up a bit during the restoiration but still, not the same flavor of a real Panormo in the finish. The Scroll I think was left original thankfully. Hopefully I can get some good pictures up on my website soon and post it. This one is a 4/4 sized bass with a slight block cut getting the string length down to 42" with a newly grafted flamed maple Neck with D-heel. It looks like all the other 'real' Panormos but without any certification.

The more I see the better. That's the only way to know how close a bass is to an original.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:57 PM
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I have here in my posession a Panormo (or School) Bass ..... Hopefully I can get some good pictures up on my website soon and post it.
yes, please!
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  #5  
Old 09-30-2009, 05:18 PM
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Cool well..

Here are some pics of the Bass. I will take better ones in the future after the Extension is put on or before if we have the time.


Last edited by Ken Smith; 10-30-2009 at 07:00 AM. Reason: new pics taken
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Old 10-03-2009, 01:29 PM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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I have here in my posession a Panormo (or School) Bass that had been re-varnished when it came in for sale and also needing a huge restoration. The Varnish was touched up a bit during the restoiration but still, not the same flavor of a real Panormo in the finish. The Scroll I think was left original thankfully. Hopefully I can get some good pictures up on my website soon and post it. This one is a 4/4 sized bass with a slight block cut getting the string length down to 42" with a newly grafted flamed maple Neck with D-heel. It looks like all the other 'real' Panormos but without any certification.

The more I see the better. That's the only way to know how close a bass is to an original.
I'd like to add a few factoids about this bass. Several things about it point to a fine maker who either worked for, or closely studied Panormo's work. Firstly, the top table has a high arch and is not graduated. It's about 6-6.5 mm's thick all over. That's how Panormo basses are as well. (The amazing bear-claw figure in the top is beautiful, by the way.) The back is also highly-arched and thin, with a wide crossbar under the soundpost. I don't know if this crossbar is original, but it is very old, and as it was mostly tight, was left intact. The treatment of the back bend is in the Panormo style as well. For some reason, the lower back is in two pieces and the upper in four. I surmise that the back wood this maker had available was possibly too short and this was his solution. The scroll is original and really pretty, though not typically English, as the volute narrows in the middle when viewed from the front, like a fine Venetian bass. The brass plates are original, as are three of the four Baker gears. There is still a hole in the brass where the middle of the original three string tuner shafts was located. The recurve on the top and back edges is quite subtle and Italian in flavor. When viewed as a whole, the workmanship on this bass points to Italy, though it is definitely English. I was prepared to keep this beauty in my shop until the right buyer came along, but Ken, being a great aficionado of fine English basses of the 19th century, made a smart buy.
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Old 10-03-2009, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
I'd like to add a few factoids about this bass. Several things about it point to a fine maker who either worked for, or closely studied Panormo's work. Firstly, the top table has a high arch and is not graduated. It's about 6-6.5 mm's thick all over. That's how Panormo basses are as well. (The amazing bear-claw figure in the top is beautiful, by the way.) The back is also highly-arched and thin, with a wide crossbar under the soundpost. I don't know if this crossbar is original, but it is very old, and as it was mostly tight, was left intact. The treatment of the back bend is in the Panormo style as well. For some reason, the lower back is in two pieces and the upper in four. I surmise that the back wood this maker had available was possibly too short and this was his solution. The scroll is original and really pretty, though not typically English, as the volute narrows in the middle when viewed from the front, like a fine Venetian bass. The brass plates are original, as are three of the four Baker gears. There is still a hole in the brass where the middle of the original three string tuner shafts was located. The re-curve on the top and back edges is quite subtle and Italian in flavor. When viewed as a whole, the workmanship on this bass points to Italy, though it is definitely English. I was prepared to keep this beauty in my shop until the right buyer came along, but Ken, being a great aficionado of fine English basses of the 19th century, made a smart buy.
Well, I would like to add that I saw the Bass prior to the restoration when it just came in. I offered to buy it on the spot un-restored with a fair profit BUT, Arnold insisted he restore it and put it to market as originally planned. He knows very well I don't personally need the Bass but then again, the hint of this being Panormo's work got the best of me.

I have it here beside me as I write this. As some of you know, I have been going back and forth with my personal basses trying to choose one as my own so I can work on my left hand accuracy. Switching basses every week does not help that one bit and in fact, hinders ones progress.

This bass has what I would consider a world class restoration. Arnold restored it with the intention of bringing it to the ISB to show the world and the world did see this bass. Everyone I spoke with of note at the show played and/or looked over this bass from players to Luthiers.

Given the date of the ISB as a fixed schedule the restoration had to be completed within a week of the show. Arnold didn't have the time to make a c-extension for it so it's only a 4-string for now. My Big Gamba went out for an Extension and some repairs as well and needed to be done on the same schedule. When the Gamba was done I drove straight to Arnold's shop from Jeff's place to show him the bass. We compared these two 'big boys' side by side and each played them both.

The Panormo(?) bass and my big Gamba are completely different in design and tone. Both powerful and both earth shakers. I just had to have this one as to me, the response with the bow is amazing. I can also play it in tune and hit 'almost' all the notes above the Neck in TP. That's better than I do with most basses at first that are even smaller, regular sized instruments.

I have a concert next week and one piece is the Flying Dutchman with two lower notes to start, DD/D#D# and then up chromatically to the upper d on the G-string. This excerpt is actually in the Simandl book but it's quite fast and played more like 16ths than 8ths as written. Guess what? I would rather tune the Panormo down to a low D than bring the Hart or Martini with the C-Extension. We also have a Piano Concerto to do by Ravel that has a few low Cs and Ds in but for the rest of the playing, even an octave up this bass will out perform the other extensions in my section for depth. I took this same attitude when I played the Storioni two years ago doing the Tchik./Romeo. My bass was deeper than the big German monster next to me at an octave lower on some parts.

So guess what.. this one's personal. I am using this bass for Orchestra and leaving my Martini and Hart in the rack. To me, this bass sounds and feels more Italian than English, much more. Who knows, maybe it's a Betts shop bass by Panormo which wont always be the same as Panormo made on his own. He made what he was told with the woods supplied and had to complete it on a schedule. Instruments made this way are harder to identify and usually do not look like the makers personal work. This Bass is quite old as I have seen it inside and out from almost the day that Arnold got the bass. I watched it during restoration every time I visited and although I wished it found a good home thru Arnold, the economy is just not to speed just yet. I figured the bass needed a home and I had a space in my rack for it.

Thank you Arnold one again for your attention to detail. This bass is beautiful. The only problem I will have playing is that the other players around me wont be as happy. Like bringing a Tank to a Gun fight.. lol
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Old 10-03-2009, 11:02 PM
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Cool More on the man known as V.Panormo..

I have been reading thru my various collection of books and they all say the same more or less about Panormo. Some more and some less.

On one website they show the bass as made by 'Vincenzo Trusiano Panormo'. I thought at first that was just some fancy way or making it look better on line until I read more about him. One of the best descriptions I found on Panormo is in one of my oldest books which is by George Hart, the son of John Thomas H. whom I have a bass of his here as well.

Here are some basics on Panormo. His name is NOT Panormo! The family name is actually Trusiano!! He came reportedly from Monreale near Palermo, Sicely but even that is unconfirmed in the records of Baptisims. Some books has his city misspelled as Montreale (with T added in error) which is near central Italy (actually spelled Montereale), not Sicely. The name Panormo as I have read in 'Javolec' is Italian for the Latin name Panormus, the name given to the whole region before the Punic wars (2nd century or so). At the time of the Hart book, they had not yet learned of his true family name or made mention of it in the text. Later I assume it was discovered that the name Panormo was some version the region he was from and had adopted as his name. Clever if you ask me. About him he does write this;

"Vincenzo Panormo was the slave of many, manufacturing Double Basses and other instruments from the material selected and purchased by his temporary employer, ofttimes compelled to carry out some crotchet of the patron much against his own wishes. The wood thus forced upon him was often the worst description; and, in addition, he was frequently obliged to complete his work within a given time. Instruments manufactured under such conditions can scarcely, it may be supposed, add to the makers reputation. We cannot but regret that he should have been obliged to waste himself on such poor materials. Fortunately, however, in some cases he found time to exercise his skilful powers to their full extent, and has thus bequeathed to us some of the finest specimens of the copyist's art." George Hart, London 1884.

Coming from Dublin via Paris, Panormo arrived at his final destination in London around 1791 where he found employment in the shop of John Betts. It may be in a shop like this that the reference above is made from. I have seen a few basses attributed to the Betts shop and one of them is 4/4 bass and is authentic and labeled. That bass may be slightly before Panormos arrival in London...
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  #9  
Old 10-07-2009, 07:35 AM
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Default another one

http://www.thomasmartin.co.uk/joseph...ouble_bass.asp
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Old 10-07-2009, 09:27 AM
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Cool another?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anselm Hauke View Post
Thank's but that's not a Vincenzo. Actually, I don't know if that Bass is labeled or branded or just attributed. J.Panormo working for Dodd? That's news to me since it's noted that he and his Father worked for Bett's at the start but after a few years Joseph opened up his own shop while the father known as 'old' Panormo (Vincenzo) stayed in the Betts shop.

A lot of who worked for who is speculative to a degree because many of them worked in a shop for another and then either had their own shop or worked from home doing double duty. Also, some of the makers noted as 'workers' were actually never employed directly by or in the shop of but rather contracted to supply instruments as a subcontractor or 'out worker' as they also called it. Sometimes fully completed, sometimes 'in the white' and sometimes without the Scroll, just a carcass. I have seen one S.A.Forster Bass where the bass is 100% John Lott but not the Scroll or the Varnish. I read by the author that there were 5 of these made and from a living source that they are all the same model and make thus showing Lott was his bass carcass supplier.

As claimed by T.Martin in the link above that this Dodd bass was made by Joseph is news to me as only Fendt and Lott Snr's. are recorded as having made their basses. Fendt though up until the time he left the shop to work for Betts.. maybe? maybe not.

There is really no way to know 100% who made what for whom without having been there watching them work. It is only guess work putting the pieces together. Some puzzles more complete than other.

For the record, I am mainly interested in finding pictures of Vincenzo's basses regardless of where they were made. I have heard of at least one made in Italy but do not recall seeing it. I have not heard of any made in Paris where he also worked and lived for a time or Dublin where he was briefly for about a year possible associated with Thomas Perry.
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Old 10-11-2009, 02:23 PM
Joel Larsson Joel Larsson is offline
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I won't exactly add any important information here, but as I've mentioned before, my old teacher has been over to Martin's place and tried the various basses. What was then attributed to Maggini is now attributed to da Salo, but the one he fancies is the Joseph Panormo. Apparently, both are extraordinary instruments, but the Panormo was just a bit more accessible. He'll go back and make up his mind in the end of this month, I believe. But now, there's also a Hieronymous Amati thrown into the picture... the plot thickens.

Point being, that a good Panormo is most likely as good as it gets.
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Old 10-11-2009, 03:03 PM
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Cool Panormo and Hart..

Last night we had our season opening concert and one of the players in the section asked if he could try the Panormo out in concert. He came over to the shop late afternoon and picked it up. In the section of 4 basses was a 35-40 year old large Pollmann made to look like a Panormo or D'salo but had a roundback and was labeled Fendt model. The other bass was a large 7/8 or 4/4 model Shen Rogeri or Panormo model. I was playing the Hart. Size wise, the Hart was actually the smallest bass there. By size, not sound!

I was on the 1st stand with the Hart and the Panormo was on the 4th. The two poor guys in the middle were overpowered. I mentioned before hand for them to play out a little more unless the conductor tones us down.

We (the section) 'were noticed' by the comments I heard from some of the players afterwords. Only 4 basses but two powerful classics and two fairly loud and powerful modern instruments. It made me play harder in some sections, that's for sure. On stage, the Panormo (school of) bass looks fantastic, size and color alike.
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Old 10-28-2009, 02:19 PM
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Arrow Listed..

Ok, the Panormo School Bass is now up on the Website. Not the best pictures but it's the best we can do at the moment.
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Old 10-28-2009, 05:02 PM
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Smile

wow, congrats, beautiful bass!
i want one too
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Old 10-28-2009, 09:58 PM
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Cool oh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anselm Hauke View Post
wow, congrats, beautiful bass!
i want one too
Well, this one is now for sale. With my back problems I have had over the years, stretching around 'Papa Bear' (its nick name in the shop) is a bit too much for me. I love playing it in the office but a 2-3 hour rehearsal is just too much.

I will just have to play the Hart or Martini until the Storioni or one of my other basses are back from restoration and pick a favorite then. Such problems.. lol

This Panormo school although beautiful and a joy to play is just a bit too big for me.

Come over and try it out. Maybe it will fit you better than it did me! You never know.
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Old 10-30-2009, 06:42 AM
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Beautiful bass!
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Old 10-30-2009, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Gencarelli View Post
Beautiful bass!
Thanks Brian. I was working on some music for a concert next month and pulled the 'Bear out for a few minutes. We are doing Mendelssohn's 4th, The Italian. The first movement is at 160 in 6/8 conducted in 2 with the triplets against the beat as you know. The 4th is up at about 208 with tripets as well but conducted in half's. This is lightening fast but almost doable.

After playing a few minutes on the 'Bear I switched to the Hart to compare and the reach from the difference of girth is night and day. The string length is barely a 1/4" difference but the difference between where my left and right hands are placed are not slight in the least bit.

The Martini is out now so I don't have it to compare in the group till next week. This piece needs the Extension having a few low D's here and there. I thought of detuning the E down to D but being the ease of playing the Hart in comparison, I put 'Papa Bear' back in the rack for now. If the 'Bear had the C-extension installed by now I would be in real trouble. I would probably go for it and just make the stretch needed.

One of you guy's needs to come by and play this bass. Maybe Arnold can shed some light on its sound as he did have it awhile and did compare it with me along side of my 'Mystery Bass' before the ISB. I think this bass to my ear sounds more Italian then English, whatever that means.
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Old 10-31-2009, 04:51 PM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
.

Maybe Arnold can shed some light on its sound
Deep, rich, balanced, even, and complex. Despite its size, a magnificent upper register--clear and reedy.
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Old 03-18-2010, 05:09 PM
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Thumbs up I agree..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
Deep, rich, balanced, even, and complex. Despite its size, a magnificent upper register--clear and reedy.
The Panormo school bass is back now with its newly made chromatic C-Extension. Sorry, no pics yet but I will post them when they are taken.

I have a dress rehearsal tomorrow and concert on Saturday. I think I will take the bass out and see what it does. It plays very easy (thanks Arnold) but its got some girth to it. I think being that I can maybe play with less effort for the same amount of sound or even more but with less bow pressure, the added girth might not be much of a strain on my lower back. Reaching less and pressing more with the bow is strain as well so I will find out soon enough if I can work around the girth issue.

I have it in the rack next to my Hart. I think a picture of them side by side would give a better perspective of what I am talking about.
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Old 03-21-2010, 04:24 PM
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Eric Swanson Eric Swanson is offline
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Got a chance to visit Ken's shop last week. Ken was remarkably generous, hospitable, knowledgeable, and enthusiastic. It is not an evening I will forget anytime soon.

We spent close to five hours, playing and listening to all of Ken's wonderful instruments. They were each very special and noteworthy, in their own unique ways.

This particular bass was simply awe-inspiring, in the most literal sense. When I hit the E string with a bow, it was as close to effortless as I have ever felt. When I first tried the bass, I was definitely over-playing; using too much tension and force, in both arms. The unfortunate result of coaxing sound out of lesser instruments for awhile, I fear.

Per Ken's suggestion, I relaxed and let the bass do the work. the difference was remarkable. One seemingly only needs to stand somewhat near this bass for it to play; rich, full, organ-like tones just roll off of the E and A strings, with virtually no effort. The upper register is full and warm, yet very vocal and piercing.

Playing this bass with Ken's Sue Lipkins bow was one of the most effortless and rewarding things I have ever felt in my bass-playing life. The music just happened, with no thought or effort.

The shoulders didn't seem wide or awkward to me. But then, I am somewhat tall. Even so, the sounds that come out of this bass and the ease with which they magically appear is priceless and, I think, worth a bit of reaching, if one's stature requires it.

I ache when I think of how fun this bass was to play. Somebody will be very happy when they buy this instrument. What a trip it would be to play, day after day.
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