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  #1  
Old 01-19-2007, 10:19 PM
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Lightbulb History of the American Bass

I authored a thread on ‘talkbass.com’ in November of 2005 on Yankee Basses and it grew to over 400 posts in about a year. It was the first time on-line where Bassist and Luthiers came together to pool their resources and knowledge. I think this was a thread where everyone had something to learn. Rather that copy 21 pages containing over 400 posts from TalkBass I will just re-cap some of the highlights that I posted personally. I don’t feel good about copying materials from others over there that might have some copyright coverage as well.

Please feel free to jump in and post your Yankee Basses once again and add it to the Smith Forum. I assure you that it will not end up in some archive section! Relevant questions and comments are welcomed as well here.
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  #2  
Old 01-19-2007, 10:21 PM
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Lightbulb History of the American Bass (2)

I have now owned 2 old Yankee Basses and one new one as well as an old English Bass that was restored in 19th century New England. I have great respect for these Bass Pioneers. Both of my older Basses are from the Prescott School. One is by A. Batchelder & Son, 1875 and the other a 7/8 Prescott c.1820 which I sold in 2006.

I have seen many Yankee Basses at other shops both pictured and in person. Some of them have replaced Scrolls and a few Basses I have seen have old Yankee type Scrolls but look to be European made Basses that were repaired here. When I was a young Bassist 35 years ago the only American Bass mentioned was Prescott. Since I started looking closely at this in the last few years it is clear to me that the Prescott name has been used much too often in naming an olde Yankee. Even Basses owned by famous players that I have seen I have to be honest with my opinions and say Prescott ‘School’ but ‘not’ a Prescott. Prescott was not the first maker of Bass instruments but his output and success made him the most prolific Yankee maker. Let's 'hunt' those Yankee Basses down and get them cataloged up here.......

All of my Basses can be found here regardless if they have been sold already; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/

These are some of the names that popped up on the TB thread I started; Prescott, Dearborn, Bates, J.B. Allen, Tewksbury..And Prescott attributed Basses owned by Scott Lafaro and Reggie Workman that have different FFs ad Scrolls than the other Prescotts we have seen.

Also, George and August Gemunder who moved here from Europe and settled in NY after starting out in Mass. as well as Czech born Joseph Bohmann who set-up shop in Chicago around 1888.

Yankee Bass owners & fans, Speak out!



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  #3  
Old 01-19-2007, 10:23 PM
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Lightbulb History of the American Bass (3)

Not all made Basses. Many made just Church Basses and most made only Violins.

I have a fairly large book by Wenberg on American makers. Again, it's mostly Violins but there are 'mentions' only about some that made Basses. "The Violin Makers of the United States
by Thomas James Wenberg, Mount Hood Publishing Company, 1986."


I have read a story about the Smithsonian claiming Prescott made only 12 of the 7/8ths Basses but that does not make sense to me. Prescott made 207 Double Basses not counting the 500 or so Church Basses. I would assume that most were 7/8ths, some 4/4 and 3/4 sizes. Maybe the 5/4, 7.5ft Basses as Elgar refers to is what the Smithsonian is referring to.

I have also read that they made them 3-string as it was to be plain and conservative as the 4-String was new in much of Europe at that time and England was the last to go to 4-strings. New Englanders being mostly of English decent viewed the Bass as a 3-string instrument for traditional purposes.

My Batchelder from New Hampshire was made in 1875 as a 4-string. This shows that most of the 19th century stayed 3-string in NE.

Arnold Schnitzer and Robbie MacIntosh were looking over my Prescott when Robbie pointed out some faint Purfling left in around the C-bout edges.. What does this mean? This large 7/8 Prescott was cut down from a 4/4 size to its present shape. The Purfling Loop on the Neck Button did make us think it was cut but we didn't see any other clues at that time so we dismissed the idea until now.

I have seen a picture of a Church bass with an Oak or Ash Scroll on line. Also, my Batchelder has a quarter sawn White Pine Back so I would venture to say that early makers in New England used local woods on occassion that was less than traditional for string instruments.
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  #4  
Old 01-19-2007, 10:24 PM
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Lightbulb History of the American Bass (4)

Prescott Scrolls

In an article I read It was believed that Prescott copied an old English Scroll for his model. I don't know if they are referring to Basses or Gambas on this one. I have seen other American Scrolls with carvings as well. Some have 4 and even 6 turns at the Head. I have seen Italians with an extra turn but never with 6. This seems to be mostly early American. Prescotts Scrolls vary from period to period but they are always the same idea. Scrolls are carved in at the top with inlaid plates for all that I have seen. FF holes are wide and short looking and usually upright but some have a bit of slant. Most that are un-altered are attached to the top at the ends.

I see the most variation on the neck block and back construction. Some backs are double thickness with the ribs bent around them using the back lip channel as the bending form. My Batchelder is made that way. Some have neck blocks that from the outside seem to be the original design while many others have raised upper ribs at the neck suggesting they were made 'blockless'. Ofcourse these have been 'blocked' at the first chance during its earliest restoration. My Prescott was cut down and the original Purfling only shows in the corners and the 'button' area. We will try to figure out what shape and size this was originally if at all possible once the top is off. Many Prescotts were made with the Ribs ‘inserted’ into the Top and Back plates like a Yankee Furniture Drawers.

The other thing that varies with these Basses are the sizes he made as well as design. Gamba and Busetto were made as well as two different Block/less designs. I have seen a 3/4 Gamba the huge ones on line over 7ft Tall and the cut versions like mine. I would guess he made mostly 7/8-4/4 sizes with some 3/4 and some 5/4 models over his life span.

The 5-string Gagliano in the Elgar Book is now believed to be a George Panormo and was converted back to 4-strings some time ago. The Nicolo Amati (labeled) used by 'Virtuoso de Roma' on all the Vivaldi recordings of the 1950s-'60s is now attributed to CG Testori. This happens a lot with old instruments attributed to famous makers. If we never saw a JB Allen or Dearborn we would most likely call them all Prescotts. There is nothing bad here, just open minds looking for truth in Bass making history. A maker named Benjamin Willard (1805-1810) is believed to be Prescotts teacher. Recently I saw a Bass in a NY shop and thought it was a beautiful Willard only to be told it’s a Prescott. It seems that every Yankee bass wants to be the most famous regardless of fact. Regardless of who the maker is, I see the values based on the individual Basses as long as they have similar merits, Prescott or not.


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  #5  
Old 01-19-2007, 10:26 PM
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Lightbulb History of the American Bass (5)

Now, as far as Prescott restorations go, a lot of discoveries were made when mine was opened up. The Top still has some evidence left of the Bass having Rabbit joints on the Top as well as the Back where the ribs were bent around the plates instead of using a form. This Bass was reduced in size (upper shoulders and C bouts but corners all original) and must have been trimmed just inside the Purfling line and re-carved internally to even the Bass out by that Joint. This means that this is an earlier Prescott than originally thought. We originally dated it due to the Dearborn Label as maybe old stock when the Bought the Shop from Prescott in 1845 or so but now we have a different viewpoint on it's age. This also means it is a Deerfield Bass and not made in Concord. We now believe this early 4/4 cut down Prescott to be c.1820 as his later Basses also have a lighter Varnish and different construction.

Arnold also found an old repair label inside from O.H. Bryant, August 1941. Bryant was the main repairman for the Boston Symphony. He died in 1943 at the age of 70. He was 68 when he worked on this Bass.
This Prescott of mine has had many alterations. It currently has a replaced Neck (graft), Neck Block, Size totally trimmed and reduced, Bass Bar replaced (but very old), Converted from 3 to 4 strings in the latter part of the 19th century with French gears and the Upper Ribs re-bent and sloped inwards as it is evident in the lighter Varnish color of the upper Ribs.

The Cross Bars in this Bass are Pine (as is the Top) and will be replaced as they are literally falling off the Back. The Bass Bar might remain but I have to look at it along with the Graduations which are almost perfect. The Top being slightly thicker near the Bar makes me think that the person that 'might' have done a re-graduation on the Top worked around the Bar instead of removing it. This being an Early Prescott and in fantastic condition leads me to believe Prescott left the Top extra thick as it is 11mm on one spot but 7mm right next to it. Maybe it was 11mm at that point and re-graduated to 7mm as far as possible without disturbing an otherwise good Bass Bar. The Bar itself it crude according to Arnold and he may just re-shape it slightly and leave the Top as is. "Aint Broke, dont fix!".. The Bass will need a Neck-graft again to get the proper Bridge height, Neck-stand, D-stop and string length desired by today’s professional Orchestra player. A few cracks need to be glued, Blocks glued back, half edging on about 1/2 the underside of the Top and a host of other small but important details. I have asked Arnold to do***ent his work as best possible on film as this Bass IS a real Prescott and maybe one of the oldest examples of a Yankee Bass we have seen from the inside.

Pre-Restoration and Post Restoration links; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...ott/index.html http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...t-preview.html
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  #6  
Old 01-19-2007, 10:27 PM
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Lightbulb History of the American Bass (6)

I recently ordered some info on Prescott from the 'New Hampshire Historical Society' and just received it today. It is hand written accounting records (probably done at one time as the handwriting is identical on all pages) of all the Bass Viols from 1809 -1829 numbering 147 instruments. I believe these were both types of Bass instruments from the prices he charged.

For instance, this is how and what is written;
1. (when made) 1809 April - (when sold) 1809 Nov - Jon P. Cram M. (Price) 14""

#s 1-15 are priced from 10"" to 17"" (1809-1819 Nov.)with some @15.50
#11 had no price and says yr.1818, Doit. Crosby with no price listed.
Then after #15, #11 is listed again and says; (made) 1819, Nov (sold) 1820 Jan. Harrison Gray, 16"".

#3 of 1811 is re-entered after #43 and says who bought it first and who then bought it again in 1824 Oct. It seems to have a record of both Buyers there.

After 30 instruments made by July of 1823 he had grossed $530.50. His prices now change after #15 ($14.) as #16 is $28. and #27 and 28 are only $12.

As time goes on his prices go up to 20s and 50s. I believe this MUST be the price differences between his Church Basses and his Double Basses. In Feb of 1828, one entry is for $72.50, the highest price yet and sold to Deacon Mason. Was this his first 7ft 5/4 Busetto monster? I see one other Bass earlier for $60. That says (when made) Oct. & Nov., (sold Nov.19, 1825 to T. Thompson. Several Basses b4 and after were only $20. Some say in the Price column, 20 B.B.6. This appears first on #40 and last on #92. What could B.B.6. mean? A bank account, partner, location?

These are only legal pad sized photo copies and are not so clear. I am using a Magnifier Glass to read these for you.. And me too..lol

Some names appear many times in the sold list. One of interest is Henry Prentiss who himself was a Violin Maker in Mass. at that time. He must have been a dealer for Prescott’s Basses because I see 16 of them sold to him and often several in a row. The first was #76 made March 1826 and sold Nov 1826 to Esq. Prentise and later entries all say Henry Prentise. The last on my List are #s132, 133 and 134 from July 1828. All 3 seem to be Double Basses as they are $45/2 and $50. each. Also, $16-$29 seems the low $ in that period and they must be Church Basses. It seems that Prentise bough both types of Bass from the prices show paying $25. or $50. in the same month. In the Wenberg book of American makers his name is spelled with ss at the end, Prentiss. Is this the same guy? I think so.. maybe not...lol.. Dealer? Maker?

Anyway, I wonder if my EXACT Prescott Bass is listed here. Then I would know who the first owner was. Gee, I wonder if the Warranty is transferable.. That would save me alot of money in repairs..lol
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  #7  
Old 06-07-2007, 02:15 AM
Brian Glassman Brian Glassman is offline
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Default The "Arvel Shaw" Prescott

Barrie has the Arvel Shaw Prescott up for sale.

There are nice pics here: http://kolstein.cybrhost.com/mm5/mer...gory_Code=bass
BG
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  #8  
Old 06-07-2007, 10:50 PM
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Lightbulb Prescott?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Glassman View Post
Barrie has the Arvel Shaw Prescott up for sale.

There are nice pics here: http://kolstein.cybrhost.com/mm5/mer...gory_Code=bass

BG
Why do you believe that to be a Prescott? The FFs and Scroll are different than all the other Prescotts we have seen. Maybe it's another Yankee maker but I don't buy every old Yankee being a Prescott because someone claims it to be!
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Old 06-13-2007, 02:01 AM
Brian Glassman Brian Glassman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
I don't buy every old Yankee being a Prescott because someone claims it to be!
I agree, however I have seen some longer swooping f's like these on a lighter colored, very large 'Prescott' that I believe is on Barrie's pay to veiw site. Also similar f's on some Prescott church basses. AND the cello shaped one sold at Hammond Ashley's. We've also talked about the possibility that Abe and the boys probably used different scrolls from dif. suppliers thru the decades.
Also on the Arvel Shaw bass, look at the outer linings on the ribs and along the side of the neck joint, as well as the flamed rock maple back and compare it to this bass at Nahrmann's : http://www.nahrmannbass.com/cgi-bin/...rd&UsedID=0003

pretty similar.

BG
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  #10  
Old 06-13-2007, 03:40 AM
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Lightbulb Yankee School

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Glassman View Post
I agree, however I have seen some longer swooping f's like these on a lighter colored, very large 'Prescott' that I believe is on Barrie's pay to veiw site. Also similar f's on some Prescott church basses. AND the cello shaped one sold at Hammond Ashley's. We've also talked about the possibility that Abe and the boys probably used different scrolls from dif. suppliers thru the decades.
Also on the Arvel Shaw bass, look at the outer linings on the ribs and along the side of the neck joint, as well as the flamed rock maple back and compare it to this bass at Nahrmann's : http://www.nahrmannbass.com/cgi-bin/...rd&UsedID=0003

pretty similar.

BG
Brian, the sweeping FFs on the early Prescott Cellos and a small amount of Cello Model Basses are quite different than the LaFaro and Shaw Basses. Basses by JB Allen in Ma. and Bates in Vt. have a similar sweep to those just mentioned including my Batchelder. It is unfortunate that most dealers today still call any Bass similar to a Prescott a Genuine one. Maybe you can go back and read my original longer thread on TB about the Yankee makers which has pics of some of these other makers. Then it will be clearer that many other makers used similar features like Prescott.
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Old 06-13-2007, 08:31 AM
Brian Glassman Brian Glassman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Brian, the sweeping FFs on the early Prescott Cellos and a small amount of Cello Model Basses are quite different than the LaFaro and Shaw Basses. Basses by JB Allen in Ma. and Bates in Vt. have a similar sweep to those just mentioned including my Batchelder. It is unfortunate that most dealers today still call any Bass similar to a Prescott a Genuine one. maybe you can go back and read my original longer thread on TB about the Yankee makers which has pics of some of these other makers. Then it will be clearer that many other makers used similar features like Prescott.
Ken, It doesn't necessarily mean that they are not Prescotts either. I have gone thru that thread extensively. That is what got me on TB in the first place. However, I don't remember seeing any outer linings that looked like these on basses other than Prescotts. Would you agree that this Nahrmann three stringer is the real deal? I saw it and played it in the flesh. He believes the tailpiece to be original.

BG
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  #12  
Old 09-29-2010, 01:34 AM
Nando Raio Nando Raio is offline
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Default 1880's George E. Bryant Bass, Lowell M.A

Here is a few pictures of my 1880's George E.Bryant Bass....Yankee's Bass!
George's great great grand daughter sent me 2 pictures of him at his shop, I thought would be cool to post them,
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  #13  
Old 09-29-2010, 01:48 AM
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Thumbs up nice..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nando Raio View Post
Here is a few pictures of my 1880's George E.Bryant Bass....Yankee's Bass!
George's great great grand daughter sent me 2 pictures of him at his shop, I thought would be cool to post them,
The pictures of that bass reveal a turning point in Yankee Bass making. This bass is a few decades after the arrival or the old Gemunder Brothers. They came separately a few years apart and from different countries as George was working in France with Vuillaume and August came from Germany, his homeland. They later both moved to New York, again separately but the next generation of Gemunder's collaborated as well.

The reason I mention them as seeing a Cello-like shouldered Violin Cornered roundback shows a much higher art of bass making than seen in the Prescott Era. Also, many of the Boston school makers were European trained Violin makers. George Gemunder made 2 Vuillaume model basses shortly after arriving in New England. August made a pair of Gamba roundbacks (one of which I own) and at least one roundback smaller gamba shaped bass. In NY, the son's turned to importing basses from Germany and concentrated mainly on Violins.

This Bass reminds me more of Gemunder influence rather than Prescott with the exception of the tuner plates which again, look beautiful. Enjoy it..
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Old 09-29-2010, 11:40 AM
Nando Raio Nando Raio is offline
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Thumbs up

Thanks Ken for the info. I don't really know anything about August and Gemunder, were they Bryant's as well?
I talked to the great great granddaughter and she traced her family back to the 1700's in England, very interesting, George Bryant passed away in 1916.
This bass sounds more like an Italian bass than anything else, the back is really alive, you can feel it on every note, its really easy to play even with the string String length been over 42
Upper Bouts 20 inches
Middle Bouts 14 inches
Lower Bouts 25.9 inches

Large 3/4 or a small 7/8?
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  #15  
Old 09-29-2010, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nando Raio View Post
Thanks Ken for the info. I don't really know anything about August and Gemunder, were they Bryant's as well?
I talked to the great great granddaughter and she traced her family back to the 1700's in England, very interesting, George Bryant passed away in 1916.
This bass sounds more like an Italian bass than anything else, the back is really alive, you can feel it on every note, its really easy to play even with the string String length been over 42
Upper Bouts 20 inches
Middle Bouts 14 inches
Lower Bouts 25.9 inches

Large 3/4 or a small 7/8?
Actually it is August Gemunder Snr. and George Gemunder Snr.. They were two makers that mover to Mass. about 1846 and 1848. George came from France where he was working and August from Germany. Both originally trained by their father in Germany. Your Bass reminds me of their work in some ways.
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Old 10-01-2010, 04:14 AM
Brian Glassman Brian Glassman is offline
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Default

Beautiful bass! Thanks for the interesting post.
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  #17  
Old 04-24-2016, 06:04 PM
Jeff Krieger Jeff Krieger is offline
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Default Strings, Bridge for Church Bass

I am finishing up restoring a church bass and was wondering if there were opinions on what kind of strings and bridge to put on it? It is a 4 string church bass. Should I put cello or bass gut strings? Someone recommended a Forster bridge which was popular in England in the early 1800's. Are there any thoughts about that?

What kind of bow would be used, a cello or bass?
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  #18  
Old 04-24-2016, 10:36 PM
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Default ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Krieger View Post
I am finishing up restoring a church bass and was wondering if there were opinions on what kind of strings and bridge to put on it? It is a 4 string church bass. Should I put cello or bass gut strings? Someone recommended a Forster bridge which was popular in England in the early 1800's. Are there any thoughts about that?

What kind of bow would be used, a cello or bass?
I have no idea. I never had a Church bass or a desire to own or play one. Sorry.
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