Ken's Corner (Bass Forums Sponsored By KSB)

Go Back   Ken's Corner (Bass Forums Sponsored By KSB) > Double Basses > Strings [DB] > Classical/Arco

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-28-2012, 06:15 AM
Chris Kelly Chris Kelly is offline
Junior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 03-15-2009
Location: London
Posts: 2
Chris Kelly is on a distinguished road
Default New orchestral strings from Pirastro & Daddario

Hi Ken,

Have you or anyone else on here tried the new Kaplan strings from Daddario or Pirastro's new Flexocor Deluxe set? I'm due a string change & want to weigh up all my options.

Best regards,
Chris
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-28-2012, 01:58 PM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Default Flex.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Kelly View Post
Hi Ken,

Have you or anyone else on here tried the new Kaplan strings from Daddario or Pirastro's new Flexocor Deluxe set? I'm due a string change & want to weigh up all my options.

Best regards,
Chris
I have the Flex Deluxe on one of my basses, tried and took them off one bass and tried them on another bass as well. I played one show with them a few days ago and they are ok. They don't knock me out. I prefer the Passione Stark to them as far as on the two basses I have tried both of these sets on.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-12-2012, 07:47 AM
Eric Swanson's Avatar
Eric Swanson Eric Swanson is offline
Senior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 11-12-2007
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 199
Eric Swanson is on a distinguished road
Default

Haven't yet tried the D'Addario Kaplans. All I know is what I can see and hear on these clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9IdG3m7IK4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODFzT...84FAAAAAAAACAA

Any of you folks try these at the most recent ISB convention?
__________________


Last edited by Eric Swanson; 04-12-2012 at 07:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-21-2012, 12:29 AM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
Senior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-21-2007
Location: Wainuiomata
Posts: 0
Richard Prowse is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Swanson View Post
Haven't yet tried the D'Addario Kaplans. All I know is what I can see and hear on these clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9IdG3m7IK4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODFzT...84FAAAAAAAACAA

Any of you folks try these at the most recent ISB convention?
Hey, these sound interesting! I'll look forward to any more info.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-23-2012, 01:40 AM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Thumbs up Kaplan's and the Deluxe Flex.

Ok, I posted above about the Flexocor Deluxe of which I have a set on one of my basses now. These did not have a name yet when I got the sample set so they were on the bass and being tested before I knew what they were to be called. I have to say they have improved in the short time since putting them on. I tried them on the Hart at first and took them right off as they didn't have the sound that I like on that bass. Then, I put them on the Mougenot and they were better but didn't knock me out. Now that they have settled in, they are very nice. They 'are' the Deluxe of the Flexocor sets, close to the 92s I would say in gauge but not sound. They are also similar in gauge to the regular Passione but have much more sound. This is the best new set Pirastro has put out in general since the Evah's. The Passione Starks I think work better for firm playing as the regular set is a bit light.

On the Kaplan's, I just put a set on my Hart, replacing the Passione Starks. I was not sure at first if they worked better for me on that bass but after playing just a few minutes with the strings at pitch, I think these are nice sounding strings. Sort of a mix of sound between Evah's, Passione's and Flexocor 92s. The have more grit than 92s but smoother than the Passione's. The turn less than Evah's and have more sustain in the pizz than the Passione's. The Kaplans are also a lighter gauge string but soft under the fingers like Evah weichs, just not as thick.

The Hart is my main bass. If I don't like the string as soon as I put it on, it comes right off. A bummer for my fingers, hands and arms changing strings again not to mention the time wasted, but it does happen. I have to like the string in minutes. IF, I like the string which is the case with the new Kaplan's, they stay on the bass and I play them until I don't like them or they wear out.

Strings that I like that I have used and tested and continue to buy for various basses I play, buy and sell include Flexocor 92s (regular and stark), Evah's (reg and stark), Belcantos and Passione's (reg and stark). I also mix on occasion a regular set with a stark E. I buy other strings as well for the basses here in complete and mixed sets as needed but they are not what I like to use personally. As I have said many times before, some basses work better with some strings. Also, depending on what I am playing with 'that' bass, I might need something different. If playing an Orchestra gig or a Jazz gig, I might need different sets for the same bass. Sometimes I am either too lazy to make the change or it's not worth it just for a gig or two as putting strings on and off shortens their life. My personal optimum string for a particular bass is one that works for both Jazz pizz and Orchestra bowing. Sometimes, the bass itself only does one thing good and the other only fair at best. This is a different topic but for now, I think the Kaplans will work for what I have coming up which includes Beethoven's 9th next week, New World Sym.(and more) early next month and a Pop's concert with a few pieces to be played with pick-up and amp. Three different orchestras and three different bass sections with one of the other guys in all three sections with me as well. Seven/7 basses for the 9th and 4 basses for the other two concerts. Two of the guys playing the Pop's thing played with me last week in another orchestra concert so as you can see, I need to spend my time practicing throughout the season and not changing strings or adjusting my bass. I like set the bass up with workable versatile strings and play them till they wear out. Then, I put on the same set new again if they worked well of if I think I need to try one of my other favorites, I put them on. If a new sting comes out, I don't always try them on my main bass. It depends on many things which bass I test new strings.

So, a thumbs up for both these new sets but on my Hart, my main bass, the Kaplan's stay on for now. The Flexocor deluxe are staying as well on the Mougenot. They sound great on that bass. I played back to back a few weeks ago in a B'way type show pit and then did an Orchestra rehearsal. It worked out fine. I also played an Orchestra concert about two months ago with the Mougenot when I first put the Deluxe set on and they were a bit bright for my ear but no one seemed to mind.

Brighter and slightly tighter with smooth bowing, Flexocor Deluxe.

Smooth deep/clear tone with a flexible feel, the new Kaplan's.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-23-2012, 03:29 AM
Geoff Chalmers Geoff Chalmers is offline
Junior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 03-31-2010
Location: Leeds, UK
Posts: 14
Geoff Chalmers is on a distinguished road
Default

Thanks for the review Ken.

Do you know what gauge the Kaplans are? I think they offer light,medium & heavy. Do you think they would work for jazz pizz?

Thanks Geoff
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-23-2012, 11:52 AM
Eric Hochberg Eric Hochberg is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-02-2007
Location: Winnetka, IL
Posts: 189
Eric Hochberg is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Chalmers View Post
Thanks for the review Ken.

Do you know what gauge the Kaplans are? I think they offer light,medium & heavy. Do you think they would work for jazz pizz?

Thanks Geoff
I tried these on Kurt Moroki's Schnitzer Ergo bass at ISB. They were pretty dark for jazz and did have some sustain, but not my cup of tea. I prefer Evah Weichs as a hybrid string as it seems they produce more highs with more sustain.
__________________
Eric Hochberg
erichochberg.com
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-23-2012, 12:39 PM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg View Post
I tried these on Kurt Moroki's Schnitzer Ergo bass at ISB. They were pretty dark for jazz and did have some sustain, but not my cup of tea. I prefer Evah Weichs as a hybrid string as it seems they produce more highs with more sustain.
I agree with you on the jazz side but they don't bow as well being a bit spongy and loose under the hairs. Like I said, you have to pick the string for your ear, bass and type of playing. The Kaplan's were developed for Orchestra as far as I can tell. Most Jazz-liked strings don't bow very well. I can play Jazz on my bass with these strings and my bass is dark as well. Dark is deep, no? It's a bass, no? Dark and deep is my goal.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-23-2012, 06:10 PM
Eric Hochberg Eric Hochberg is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-02-2007
Location: Winnetka, IL
Posts: 189
Eric Hochberg is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Most Jazz-liked strings don't bow very well. I can play Jazz on my bass with these strings and my bass is dark as well. Dark is deep, no? It's a bass, no? Dark and deep is my goal.
Dark and deep sounds like a desirable trait in a bass until you try and mix that in a rhythm section. I can't tell you how many extra hours I spent in the studio working on the sound of a very dark and deep old Italian bass ( Valentini?) strung with spiros no less, on 12 album tracks. As you've said , Ken, Juzeks can sound good for jazz and pop because of their more mid-range character.
__________________
Eric Hochberg
erichochberg.com
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-23-2012, 10:55 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
Senior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-21-2007
Location: Wainuiomata
Posts: 0
Richard Prowse is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
I agree with you on the jazz side but they [EP weichs] don't bow as well being a bit spongy and loose under the hairs.
Snap! Couldn't agree more! I've been playing French on them and getting frustrated. My bow is going back to the luthier today to get its German frog back on. The German certainly gets a better sound out of 'spongy' strings.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-23-2012, 11:41 PM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg View Post
Dark and deep sounds like a desirable trait in a bass until you try and mix that in a rhythm section. I can't tell you how many extra hours I spent in the studio working on the sound of a very dark and deep old Italian bass ( Valentini?) strung with spiros no less, on 12 album tracks. As you've said , Ken, Juzeks can sound good for jazz and pop because of their more mid-range character.
Ok Eric, I played in Rhythm sections for 20 years in NYC. Also, 15 of those years was on my Old Italian bass with spiros or some other string with growl and I had no problem recording with it or playing live. The problem was finding a pick-up that would work, as the true fundamental of the notes were too thick for all the pickups on the market I had tried. I ended up inlaying the Barcus-Berry T-bar (that goes ON the bridge with a 'paste' of some sort) INSIDE the bridge on the inner curve about half way in its depth and capped it with ebony. I still have that bridge but the bass is in Finland, modified as a 5-string now and on the principal chair.

I think 'how' you record a bass is very important. If the engineer is used to a Juzek-type bass, then that set-up on the board wont work on a 300 year old Italian bass. Bring that Valenitini bass or what ever it is (never heard of that maker) and I will make it work.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-24-2012, 10:08 AM
Eric Hochberg Eric Hochberg is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-02-2007
Location: Winnetka, IL
Posts: 189
Eric Hochberg is on a distinguished road
Default

Ken, I know your history, and your bass isn't this bass. I'm telling you I don't care if you were playing that bass, or Ron Carter, or anyone else, and put Van Gelder or anyone else at the controls, they would have a hell of a time getting that thing to sit easily in a jazz or pop mix.

We could only use mics on it as the player refused to use a pickup (to add some needed mids) and as the producer, I couldn't insist because of special circumstances. We really did try everything to tame the darkness and ended up with a decent result. The bass sounded the way it sounded.
__________________
Eric Hochberg
erichochberg.com

Last edited by Eric Hochberg; 04-24-2012 at 12:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-25-2012, 11:22 AM
Chris Kelly Chris Kelly is offline
Junior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 03-15-2009
Location: London
Posts: 2
Chris Kelly is on a distinguished road
Default

Cheers for the comparison Ken, I've just ordered a set of Kaplans. I'll report back soon.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-03-2012, 04:45 PM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Cool ok... update

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
I have the Flex Deluxe on one of my basses, tried and took them off one bass and tried them on another bass as well. I played one show with them a few days ago and they are ok. They don't knock me out. I prefer the Passione Stark to them as far as on the two basses I have tried both of these sets on.
A few weeks ago I put a set of Jargar Dolce strings on the hart and took off the Kaplans. I had used the Jargar mediums last year but was interested to try the Dolce set out. So, I took off the Kaplan's after about 3 concerts with no complaints on them but I just had to try the Jargars that were in my cabinet calling my name everything I shuffled thru the sets I had in stock.

Yesterday while testing basses side by side (which I do a lot of) we noticed that the Mougenot was so much louder than the Hart was. When they both had Passiones, the difference was much less. So, my assistant here suggested I try switching the Jargars and Flex Deluxe sets between the Hart and the Mougenot. I had been noticing the Deluxe's smoothing out a bit as they sat on the bass with only occasional playing on them so, I thought it was worth the chance. So, yesterday afternoon I switched the two basses around.

The results;
The Mougenot sounds a bit less powerful with the Jargars but much smoother and deeper than it did with the Deluxe's. An improvement because that bass has power to spare.

The Hart now sounds maybe better than it has in a long time if not ever. The strings are not quite as bright as when they were new and the Hart seems to have gotten more powerful than I can remember it ever being. Belcantos are the only other string that puts out as much power on the Hart but the tone is less sweet than the Deluxe set.

So, I will play the Hart now with these Flex-Deluxe's on it and see how long I go before changing to something else.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-13-2012, 02:02 AM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Thumbs up ok..

Took out the Hart out this evening for a rehearsal (Thursday, Orchestra Society or Philadelphia) and I think this is the loudest and deepest this bass has ever sounded. We were playing the Mozart Posthorn which has some smooth bowing, some fast parts and a bit of pizz, just a bit. The principal sitting on my left taps my should and motions his hand downwards, 'not so loud'! I was bowing on the fingerboard so I motioned to play over the fingerboard above the neck heel and he laughed out loud. People looked over and had no idea what he was laughing about. I had to try real hard to play softly for this scaled down sized group we had tonight.

The brightness I mentioned before with these new Flex, Dlx. strings sounded more like clarity but the smooth loud depth was the best I remember having with this bass.

I had a real good and smooth bow as well, my one of my old English Bryant's. The Lipkins is actually louder on this bass but I chose the Bryant for the Mozart.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-10-2012, 07:28 PM
Dave Whitla Dave Whitla is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 07-04-2010
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 39
Dave Whitla is on a distinguished road
Default

Does anyone know what the different tensions are for Passione, Deluxe and Kaplan? With all the different gauges it's hard to compare like with like.

I'm very interested in your comment that the Passiones felt a bit "loose," Ken, because that's exactly what I'm feeling right now with them on my bass. But because I'm playing it in after a long restoration I'm not sure whether what I'm feeling is caused by strings or bass (or a bit of both)...
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-10-2012, 07:49 PM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Cool tensions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Whitla View Post
Does anyone know what the different tensions are for Passione, Deluxe and Kaplan? With all the different gauges it's hard to compare like with like.

I'm very interested in your comment that the Passiones felt a bit "loose," Ken, because that's exactly what I'm feeling right now with them on my bass. But because I'm playing it in after a long restoration I'm not sure whether what I'm feeling is caused by strings or bass (or a bit of both)...
I don't have any numbers for the tensions but as for feel I can comment. Tightest was Deluxe, and the Passiones and Kaplans were close. Maybe the Passiones were looser but thicker feeling. I have a set here of each so I could measure them but the Passione set I have has a stark E. Maybe I have an unopened set of them as well. Tension and thickness are not consistent for comparisons.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-10-2012, 10:30 PM
Scott Pope Scott Pope is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-23-2011
Location: Missouri
Posts: 79
Scott Pope is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Tension and thickness are not consistent for comparisons.
Indeed. Because of the internal construction of a string, the thickness and type of outer wrap, and the amount of damping material added, there is not any direct correlation between a string's overall diameter and the tension required for pitch.

If anybody has the means, and would care to take the time and publish the findings, whether by direct observation with a tension scale, or by deduction knowing the weight of the speaking length of a string, to find out what the tension of any given Pirastro string is, I'd be interested, because they are known for not quoting or publishing their tensions beyond the traditional light-medium-heavy generalizations. The only comments I have ever been able to find out in cyberspace regarding the relative tension of Pirastro strings are anecdotal observations like Ken's for the Passiones, and several others in different contexts have put Jazzers about midway between Spiro S42 Weich and S42 Mittel.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-11-2012, 08:38 AM
Dave Whitla Dave Whitla is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 07-04-2010
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 39
Dave Whitla is on a distinguished road
Default

Following on from that, does actual tension (as measured on scale in lbs or kg) translate directly to the string feeling tight or loose, or is that feeling more abstract, like the relationship between balance and weight of bows?
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-11-2012, 09:37 AM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Whitla View Post
Following on from that, does actual tension (as measured on scale in lbs or kg) translate directly to the string feeling tight or loose, or is that feeling more abstract, like the relationship between balance and weight of bows?
I have played several basses with the same strings on them. They all feel different. So, I think the bass has more to do with the tension than the string specs in that regard.

Tailpiece angle, after length, string length, bridge height, nut height, fingerboard camber, neck strength, etc., all have something to do with the tension of your bass. I never go by numbers published on string tension other than maybe one compared to another. Once on a bass, then you can see how it feels. Belcantos on my Marconcini feel different than on my Bollbach Lion or Halle Tarr or any other bass. Same strings, different basses, different tensions!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2007 - Ken Smith Basses, LTD. (All Rights Reserved)