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Old 07-04-2007, 07:41 PM
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Default The Bass in Fifths

We have a 5 string bass thread, so I thought I'd start this one. I'm currently still tuning in 4ths but I'm seriously considering the change depending on the outcome of some discussion with a few teachers.

To begin discussion:
  • Do any of you currently tune in 5ths?
  • Have any of you tried it and gone back? If so why - was it the left hand challenges, or was it lack of acceptance by your peers or teacher(s)?
  • For those who are tuned in 5ths: What strings are you using? Who have you studied under - did you keep your teacher at the time, or did you find another (who was either more open minded or a 5ths player themselves)?
  • For those who've never tried it: What are your thoughts? Have you heard someone tuned in 5ths perform live?
I'll be posting in this thread as I continue the path toward fifths (or turn back running at some point ). I've had email exchanges with a few players, and I'm constantly researching any info I can find in the way of who is using this tuning, how/why, what books are available, string choices, etc.
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Old 07-04-2007, 07:54 PM
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Thumbs down 5ths?

The concept has been around for centuries. It takes a great player to do this and be able to play all the material and play it in tune. The Bass is hard enough to play in tune in fourths, so why make things even more difficult.

I think the 5ths thing is interesting but thinking about it and doing it for real are not the same thing!
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Old 07-04-2007, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
The concept has been around for centuries. It takes a great player to do this and be able to play all the material and play it in tune. The Bass is hard enough to play in tune in fourths, so why make things even more difficult.

I think the 5ths thing is interesting but thinking about it and doing it for real are not the same thing!
Interesting that you say this. I agree entirely that it is a huge challenge to re-learn the instrument, and certainly to gain the left hand proficiency required. It does take a great player to do this well, but in tune?...

Playing in tune would not be a challenge I think fifths presents, as for each individual string the intervals are all the same. The increased shifting does add a degree of difficulty, but shifting is not the biggest cause of intonation problems for most players (tuned in fourths) anyway.

Still, your thoughts are valid and the challenges are very real. It certainly is something else altogether to actually do this and play the bass in fifths but like I said above the advantages are really appealing to me right now...
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Old 07-04-2007, 08:29 PM
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Lightbulb Intonation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Moote View Post
Playing in tune would not be a challenge I think fifths presents, as for each individual string the intervals are all the same. The increased shifting does add a degree of difficulty, but shifting is not the biggest cause of intonation problems for most players (tuned in fourths) anyway.
Shifting not a cause for intonation problems?

I beg to differ... No, I don't beg, I just differ!
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Old 07-04-2007, 07:58 PM
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edit: Ken posted while I was writing this, so my later post and not this one is a response to his.

I'll begin with how I came to be interested in fifths tuning. I think the first time I heard anything about it was in reading about Joel Quarrington who I'm sure you're all familiar with at this point. I read his website and various comments on the message boards. I quickly learned of all the other people who are tuning their basses this way, as well as the history behind it (3 string basses tuned GDA, etc.)

Last year I heard Mr. Q premier the Harbison concerto, which was commissioned by the ISB but the fact that Quarrington would be playing it did have some influence in its composition (open strings, harmonics, etc.) as did the fact that some might use orchestra tuning and some solo.

More recently I heard Joel perform the Bottesini Gran Duo Concertante, but by this time I'd already become interested in the tuning as something I might want to try.


Recently I've become increasingly frustrated with intonation issues on the bass. Intonation that coordinates well with the other string instruments (all tuned in fifths) is one of the benefits usually presented by a defender of this tuning. Another that usually comes up right away is the open, sonorous texture that the bass takes on - this is what really got me. I recently tuned my E down to a D to grab the low note for a certain passage. In doing this the overtone series that was created really did something for the sound of my bass, as did the slightly lower tension (and yes, you don't need to get on me about using some lower tension strings than my favoured Original Flexocor)

All this combined with my desire for the contra C (which I'd otherwise get an extension for) really makes fifths tuning appeal to me. The fact that I'm young and not too far in my education, but far enough to handle the bass alright also means that I'm at a good point to be re-learning the instrument.


Right now my biggest obstacle is finding an appropriate teacher. My most recent studies were with a player from the Toronto Symphony and it was a very fruitful time for my learning. I'd love to continue those studies but for now school and location get in the way of that. The problem is that all the TSO players and in fact many of the pros in Ontario all studied under the same teachers - specifically under Tom Monahan (then principal of the TSO) at the University of Toronto. All of these guys are very strong on their idea of the "right" way to play the bass - that is: french bow, std tuning with a C ext (many using machines still) and a very conservative Simandl left hand technique. While this is a great way to play the bass for much of the orchestral repertoire, it has its limitations.

I've got a few names and the list of pros tuning in fifths grows as students of people like Joel head out into the world.

That's all for now, but like I said, more later as I learn more and get closer to making the switch...
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Old 07-04-2007, 08:26 PM
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Question Factors...

Jeff, on your comment about "3 string basses tuned GDA, etc." do you have the G-string on top or bottom in 5ths? I think in England at least it was 3 of the 4 strings we have now with the A on the bottom all in fourths. Over 99% of the Orchestra players in the world (maybe less) use fourths with or without an Ext. or a 5er to Low B or C. If this 5ths thing was a better option, more than just one or two players would have switched by now.

Next factor is the Bass. Many of the Basses we play today with 4 high tensioned steel strings in fourths were originally made for 3 lower tensioned Gut strings in 4ths or some other combination.

Many Basses today have sunken Tops from the extra pressure of 4 steel strings. Joel has a fine old Bass but I'm am not sure if it is a G.P. Maggini, a Santo Maggini (not related) of some other nice old Italian or even English made Italian copy. Regardless of who made his Bass, it is a 'smokin' instrument. I don't know if all the Basses out there could be successfully converted to 5ths and hold up structurally. Playability is the other factor. The Bass is hard enough to play as it is. Many a concert I shook my hands afterwards from fatigue.

I did recently and a long time ago as well tune my Bass in 5ths to give it a try. I was LOST!!

On d-tuning, I have also tuned down to Eb, D, Db and C on occasion and it was no picnic. I had to put fingerings in the music to remind myself where to play the notes up to the Ab before crossing over, etc. Also, I had to tune down and up during the music and count the turns on my tuner that I rehearsed. I look like the guy in the section fumbling with his Bass when in actuality, I'm the guy that is actually playing the written part correctly.

Currently I am working out this summer on my 5er to get ready to play Beethoven's 6th the Storm movement. It is only for a few passages I need the 5er being that the Extension is a lot of jumping and intonation is just about impossible. It is more likely that I will get injured trying than not. The 5-string is most likely what the piece was written for and not a 4-string tuned in 5ths, I think..
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Old 07-04-2007, 09:02 PM
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Ken, I really appreciate your input since you like my teachers have the advantage of experience I couldn't hope to have at this point in my life. That's what it's all about...

We should probably give others a chance to discuss or we might as well be talking privately, but anyhow..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Jeff, on your comment about "3 string basses tuned GDA, etc." do you have the G-string on top or bottom in 5ths? I think in England at least it was 3 of the 4 strings we have now with the A on the bottom all in fourths.
Yes, I'm aware of the practice you speak of in England at the time (4ths up from A the same as our current A string). As far as I know though, some of the first examples of tuning in fifths were from the G on the bottom - basically that was the best they could do with the strings at the time. Now with 5 strings being the norm in some circles, we have B/C strings available that make CGDA tuning a reality.

Quote:
Over 99% of the Orchestra players in the world (maybe less) use fourths with or without an Ext. or a 5er to Low B or C. If this 5ths thing was a better option, more than just one or two players would have switched by now.
I don't know how literally you meant "one or two" but there are more than that (and the number is growing fast, as naturally all the students of these players are following). Of course the figure of 99% playing in 4ths either with an ext or 5th string is probably close to the truth. Old habits don't die quickly, but things change over time. At one time Viennese tuning was popular, and it's now making a comeback (mostly for solo use). What I'm getting at is that most players are using what they do because that's what their teacher used. The bass is such a young instrument (in its current form) that it really doesn't have the same background in tradition that the other string instruments do, so naturally players follow what tradition we do have.

Quote:
Next factor is the Bass. Many of the Basses we play today with 4 high tensioned steel strings in fourths were originally made for 3 lower tensioned Gut strings in 4ths or some other combination.

Many Basses today have sunken Tops from the extra pressure of 4 steel strings. Joel has a fine old Bass but I'm am not sure if it is a G.P. Maggini, a Santo Maggini (not related) of some other nice old Italian or even English made Italian copy. Regardless of who made his Bass, it is a 'smokin' instrument. I don't know if all the Basses out there could be successfully converted to 5ths and hold up structurally.
Joel's bass is indeed a 'smokin' instrument as anyone who has heard it will tell you (have you? You should make an effort to if not - he really is a wonderful soloist!). Do you think his students all have a fine old bass like that though? With careful selection of strings, the tension doesn't have to be high at all. For example the strings Joel uses have a total of 276.7 lbs of tension according to Thomastik's figures. A set of regular gauge Flex 92s (notably lighter than my current strings) have 271.4 lbs of tension. I don't think structurally the bass is at risk in the least. Now for generating tone, that's another question, but we face that challenge regardless of tuning.

Quote:
Playability is the other factor. The Bass is hard enough to play as it is. Many a concert I shook my hands afterwards from fatigue.
Alright, we can all relate to that. Playing the bass isn't easy, but I don't feel that fifths make it impossible by any means. I'm not misled to thinking it's easier in any way. This is just one of the factors that must be weighed against the benefits when considering the switch.

Quote:
I did recently and a long time ago as well tune my Bass in 5ths to give it a try. I was LOST!!

On d-tuning, I have also tuned down to Eb, D, Db and C on occasion and it was no picnic. I had to put fingerings in the music to remind myself where to play the notes up to the Ab before crossing over, etc. Also, I had to tune down and up during the music and count the turns on my tuner that I rehearsed. I look like the guy in the section fumbling with his Bass when in actuality, I'm the guy that is actually playing the written part correctly.
When I tuned to D it was not for a passage in a work I was performing, but an excerpt I was working on (for an audition). Having to switch mid-performance would be deadly, and is a good reason to use one of the choices available (C ext, 5 string, 5ths tuning). About getting confused... I didn't find it too bad at all. I wasn't sight reading, but I didn't need to include extra fingerings or anything to learn it. Perhaps my mind just works well for this kind of thing... engineering school must be good for something. This is clearly a technical task for the mind, not a musical one, so it can be overcome fairly easily.

Quote:
Currently I am working out this summer on my 5er to get ready to play Beethoven's 6th the Storm movement. It is only for a few passages I need the 5er being that the Extension is a lot of jumping and intonation is just about impossible. It is more likely that I will get injured trying than not. The 5-string is most likely what the piece was written for and not a 4-string tuned in 5ths, I think..
Funny you mention this - I'm performing the last 2 movements of the 6th next week. I don't have an ext so I'm just playing the low notes up (or not at all in the really fast bits). Luckily our conductor is a past cellist and understands that a lot of creative liberty can be taken with that part in terms of how much playing goes on vs. faking the notes. It is supposed to sound like a storm after all I don't think it matters what bass you play that on - 5 string or ext (or fifths) - Beethoven could never have intended for each note to be played with precision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Shifting not a cause for intonation problems?

I beg to differ... No, I don't beg, I just differ!
I didn't say it wasn't a cause - just not the biggest. Not in my mind anyway. It certainly is a factor in achieving good intonation, but it's usually the big leaps or shifting in upper positions that cause this. Fifths tuning even eliminates some of the big shifts, though everyone admits that more shifting is required period. I never said this was going to be easy...
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Old 07-05-2007, 05:40 AM
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I heard Toronto bassist Andrew Downing last week in a small club. He played a german/czech bass tuned in fifths. He played solidly, at a variety of speeds, in tune all the way. Great player.

I don't understand how intonation should be any more of a problem than tuned in fourths? surely it depends what you are trying to play. In fifths, you play 10ths across three strings in the shape we would normally play octaves. In fact, probably a better way to get an in-tune 10th than spanning 4 strings like we do?
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Old 07-05-2007, 07:26 AM
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Cool 10ths?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker View Post
I heard Toronto bassist Andrew Downing last week in a small club. He played a german/czech bass tuned in fifths. He played solidly, at a variety of speeds, in tune all the way. Great player.

I don't understand how intonation should be any more of a problem than tuned in fourths? surely it depends what you are trying to play. In fifths, you play 10ths across three strings in the shape we would normally play octaves. In fact, probably a better way to get an in-tune 10th than spanning 4 strings like we do?
I can see 10ths for Jazz playing but the Bow doesn't bend that way..lol

Try playing some of the Beethoven parts or even Mozart. At that point you are working twice as hard as the Cellos. Longer and thicker strings with a bigger body and heavier bow. Jumping octaves with the Bow would actually be more awkward I think especially for the left hand.

In Jazz, you can play any note you like moving the line around. In Classical, you can't. It is 'Jail' as far as that is concerned. A Bass tuned in 5ths to Low C is just another method of avoiding playing a 5-string Bass. I think!
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Old 08-11-2007, 05:58 AM
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[quote=Ken Smith;5433]
Joel has a fine old Bass but I'm am not sure if it is a G.P. Maggini, a Santo Maggini

[quote]
G.P.Maggini
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Old 08-11-2007, 07:31 AM
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Cool huh??

[quote=Paul Warburton;5981][quote=Ken Smith;5433]
Joel has a fine old Bass but I'm am not sure if it is a G.P. Maggini, a Santo Maggini

Quote:
G.P.Maggini


Not sure what your post is about Paul but I do have an update about his Bass. We recently exchanged emails about 5ths, basses and mutual acquaintances. It turns out that although either of the two names listed above have been used for his Bass with the Santo Mag. used as a default for G.P., it is not actually known who made his Bass or even where it was made. It is also possible that it is a British Bass as well. So, there you have it..
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Old 07-13-2007, 01:58 PM
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Default my experiences in fifths.

Hi.

First, let me just say thanks to Matthew for your kind words about my playing a few weeks ago in Toronto.

I stumbled upon this thread doing the obligatory search for 'bass in fifths' that one does when one tunes ones bass in fifths. I just wanted to share some experiences with any interested parties about how it has worked for me.

I have been a double bass player for about eighteen years now. I mostly play improvised music, jazz, and some new music, but play the bass with the bow a good percentage of the time. I decided to experiment with fifths tuning about three years ago, mostly just to try it out and see if I like it. Lucky for me, I live in Toronto, and Joel Quarrington teaches here. I went to him for a few lessons, already having bought some appropriate strings and messing around at home in fifths for a while. After spending a few hours with him I was more intruiged than before, and decided to pursue it a little more seriously. Shortly thereafter, I got called to do a fairly prestigious teaching stint at the Banff Centre, which also afforded me the opportunity to play with Dave Douglas and Jeff Parker. I decided that I wasn't really ready to play in that situation in fifths, so switched back to fourths for a while for the sake of comfort. Then, I received a grant from the Canada Council for the Arts to do some study, so I decided to take a few months off performing to seriously pursue the fifths with Joel.

Joel's method is very complete, and he even convinced me to switch from French bow to German, which I love. He is an incredible and very involved teacher. He has compiled a technique and a practice routine that is very different from what I was used to - I had studied mostly 'Simandl-style' technique up to that point. I worked through the first little bit of Joel's work-in-progress book with him at those lessons, and I really look forward to it being published.

After three months of study with Joel, I started playing gigs again, and had to really concentrate hard on every note while performing to make sure I wan't a tone or two off in either direction depending on the string I was playing. All of the old technical tricks I had accumulated over the years didn't work any more, and I was required to think a lot about simplicity and melody to attempt to sound good. I continued to study with Joel for about another three months, and used both the lessons and experience playing 'in the real world' to develop comfort in fifths. Thankfully, I continue to feel like I'm learning more every time I play, and every day continue to feel more comfortable.

I have two instruments that I play. One is an average-sized 3/4 German bass from the early 1900s, and the other is a New Standard Cleveland plywood bass with a removeable neck for travel (note : it is an incredible bass - plywood never sounded so good!). On my German bass, I have been using Obligato fifths-tuning strings since they came out a few years ago. I currently have it strung, though, as an experiment with Velvet fifths-tuning strings. The Obligatos are really great sounding strings, but tend to 'roll' with the bow, making it a challenge to play cleanly all the time, especially arco at fast tempos. They also tend to unwind at the bridge from time to time. The Velvet strings sound really amazing with the bow - very clean and crisp - and allow the bass to let the low end come out quite nicely. They are maybe not so good for jazz playing, though. They are a bit metallic sounding and don't quite have the body that the Obligatos do, so I will likely switch back to Obligatos soon. On the New Standard, I have an Obligato A string on the top, a Velvet Anima D and G (well, an A tuned down to a G) and an Obligato low C. This combination really sounds great on that bass. I know it's a bit strange to have different 'middle strings', but the obligato actually matches very well with the Anima both pizz and arco. I am constantly experimenting with strings, though, so my setup changes from time to time.

Now, to the difference in sound. I can only really comment on how fifths and fourths differ from one another on the German bass, as I have only recently acquired the New Standard, and only know it in fifths. In my experience, it's true what they say - playing in fifths does change the tone of the bass. It did, however, take a while. My hypothesis is that the bass has to 'get used' to the fifths before it can take advantage of them. Now, I may be wrong about that - it may in fact be the player that has to get used to it, but I'm sure both aspects affect the transition. I feel like my bass has 'opened up' in a beautiful way. The tone of it seems a bit brighter and more focused, and it 'rings' in a way that I never noticed in fourths (I played Obligatos in fourths as well, so I know that different strings aren't the reason for it...). Although my basses are either smallish or made of plywood, they both really sound great all the way down to the low C. Musicians I play with have also noticed the same things - I get a lot of comments on how loud and ‘open’ my basses sound.

Technically, the fifths have also opened a lot of things up in my playing. I can't really comment on being an orchestral bassist, although for my own enjoyment I play a lot of classical music at home. In response to some comments about tenths and octaves, all of those ‘shapes’ that we learn can be relearned and rethought. For example, an octave ‘shape’ in tenths is just a backwards octave ‘shape’ in fourths, with the first finger playing the higher note two strings over from the fourth finger playing the lower one. It does take some time to get used to these things. As for the shifting, fifths is more easily manipulated using pivots on the thumb, extensions and stretches, but isn’t too cumbersome to get used to. Certainly the left hand does ‘move’ more than in fourths, but not to the extent that it becomes a big problem.

Being a bassist who usually doesn’t play in a bass section, I can’t really comment on the question of acceptance by peers. My musical community here doesn’t seem to have any sort of problem with what I’ve done, and in the creative and improvised music scene, individuality and personal style are the things you strive for anyway. It also means, for better or worse, that ‘sitting in’ is a bit difficult in either direction - others on my bass or me on other basses.

So, there you have some thoughts. I don’t think fifths is for everyone, just the same as fourths isn’t for everyone. I really enjoy the sound and the feeling of playing in fifths, and for me it’s the right thing to do right now. If you have the ‘itch’ to try it and can afford the time to do it with some seriousness, I highly suggest it - even if it isn’t for you, it’s worth a try.
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:10 PM
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Lightbulb info..

Andrew, thank you for that long detailed explanation. Perhaps you could put an edited version in your Profile as it is currently blank.

On your Basses in 5ths, please tell us what the string lengths are for each Bass. Also, if you happen to know please tell us the string length on Joel's Bass as well. Thx..
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:22 PM
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I don't know how into podcasts you folks are, but if you look up NACOcast (put on by Chris Millard, principal Basoon of the NAC Orchestra) there's a great interview with Joel about fifths (though it's not done with bassists as the intended audience). He talks about his bass a bit on there.

http://www.nac-cna.ca/en/multimedia/podcasts/index.html: it's the 04.10.2006 NACOcast episode

Joel is playing regular 3/4 Dominants, so I'm guessing his string length is somewhere around 41-42" - anything longer than about 42.25" won't really work with those strings as far as I know.


As a side note, I've talked to my prospective new teacher and I will be starting studies though my university in the fall with him. He is a 4ths player though and through, but we talked a bit and he said if I want to try 5ths that he'd go with it. We agree on a few big tuning independent issues (use of extension fingerings/pivots, the amount of thought that should be given to Simandl, etc.) so I think it will go very well.

I'm hesitant still, but if I'm going to do it I should do so before I learn all the repertoire in fourths, and while I'm young and can learn quicker... we'll see!
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:51 PM
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Default string length.

I've just added a small amount of stuff to my profile. The string length on my German bass is just over 42", and the New Standard's string length is pretty close to that as well. I've never played Joel's bass, so I'm not sure what the string length is on that.
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Old 07-26-2007, 02:19 AM
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Well, I'm doing it... or at least collecting the necessary strings until I head to my luthier for a long overdue checkup and some minor work. I'll give it at least 6 months and if I'm really struggling at this point I guess it'll be back to fourths! I'll report back here after the change and once I've started with my new teacher in a month.


(if anyone has for sale a used or new Spirocore low C, new or like new Dominant solo F# and solo A please let me know)
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Old 08-10-2007, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Moote View Post
http://www.nac-cna.ca/en/multimedia/podcasts/index.html: it's the 04.10.2006 NACOcast episode
Hey Jeff thanks very much for this link I just found it while catching up to this thread (yeah, I admit it I usually speak before I think LOL).

Looking forward to Joel's method book!
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Old 08-10-2007, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnny Layton View Post
Hey Jeff thanks very much for this link I just found it while catching up to this thread (yeah, I admit it I usually speak before I think LOL).

Looking forward to Joel's method book!
You're welcome! Joel's method has been a long time coming but he says it's nearing completion now. I'm very much looking forward to it, as the only other bass method for fifths I know of is Denis Massuzo's book which seems very good and thorough for beginners, but not so much a comprehensive method as a guide to fingerings.


From the way Joel speaks about playing the bass I have no doubts his method will be a great resource for fifths tuning.
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Old 08-07-2007, 01:09 PM
Johnny Layton Johnny Layton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Moote View Post
  • Do any of you currently tune in 5ths?
  • Have any of you tried it and gone back? If so why - was it the left hand challenges, or was it lack of acceptance by your peers or teacher(s)?
  • For those who are tuned in 5ths: What strings are you using? Who have you studied under - did you keep your teacher at the time, or did you find another (who was either more open minded or a 5ths player themselves)?
  • For those who've never tried it: What are your thoughts? Have you heard someone tuned in 5ths perform live?
I tune in 5ths now...have been doing it off and on for almost a year now I think. The hardest part was finding useful fingering patterns to play some things I liked that sat on the fingerboard more conveniently in 4ths.

I went to one of the pros (Jessica Gilliam-Valls) the Austin area last year to take some lessons (something I do whenever I am able), and I had my bass tuned in 5ths when I started. After talking about it with her and trying out a few things, she directed me to Silvio Dalla Torre's 4-finger method. I've been following his method since, though it's written for a 4ths tuned bass. I was pretty much sold on Silvio's method before I went to her for help, because I got to hear him play and prove his fingering ideas when he came to Austin last year.

I picked up a cello method also and am pacing slowly through it...mostly to get accustomed to where the notes sit on the fingerboard, which is different for all but the D string. I have Masuzzo's book now also, and am using that also to train myself to read better. Masuzzo employs Simandl and Rabbath type fingerings in his method, just in case anybody wants to know.

Here in Texas I know of no teachers who use the 4-finger approach all over the fingerboard, and Paul Unger's interest in 5ths tuning is the only evidence I have of any professional bassist and/or teacher using it. When I was taking lessons with Jessica, she herself didn't tune her bass in 5ths and was wary to do so because she also plays the cello and didn't want to take the chance she'd sabotage her muscle-memory for them.

I'm using the Red Mitchell spiro set right now which I like very much with the bow and with pizz, but I haven't found a low C that I'm completely happy with yet. Sometimes I like the spiro C best, other times I find the Helicore hybrid B best. Likely, it's my own bowing technique that is giving me grief and I just need to woodshed it. I've tried other solo/orchestra string combinations...corellis, helicores, flexocores. Though I haven't tried the dominant set Joel Quarrington recommends yet, I'm sure that's a great combo too.

I have few, if any, peers as I'm an amateur bassist and I like to experiment. But like I said we've got at least one pro bassist experimenting with it here in Texas, and as far as my experience in getting help from the pros around me goes they've all been open-minded with me to at least some degree.
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:55 PM
Charles Federle Charles Federle is offline
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The use of all four fingers in the lower positions at least up here in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area is a bit more then you might think. It is just that most of us hide it very well. Almost all of Bradetich's students use all four fingers, but it is not apparent as we use it for exceptions that we need it on like Mozart 39. I think of it as just another tool in the box, though for me it is a bit of a specialty tool.
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