Stump The Chump

[Ken McKay]

Any similarites here?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Ken McKay

Any similarites here?

Well, the upper and lower left are both Cornerless basses attributed to Storioni. This I know as one of them is mine. The other was featured in the 'Strad' some time ago and is listed on 'Cozio', 7th page (and Elgar). The FFs are similar on both Basses but not exact. Storioni is listed as never making 2 instruments alike. No forms or molds were ever used as he built them from the 'blocks'! In this case, the 'blocks' were at opposite ends. He also never made or placed the FFs on two instruments alike and is listed as being less Cremona and more Neapolitan-like as far as the Varnish goes. However, he IS known as the last great Cremona maker regardless of all his flaws and inconsistencies.

The two on the right are a Violin and maybe a Cello?, the upper right? The lower looking more Guarnieri-like as that was a maker he followed but never copied exactly. The upper right could be him but nothing similar to the others. The Varnish shows some skill. Remember that Alessandro Gagliano (and one of his brothers) who founded the Neapolitan school (who Storioni is 'accused' of varnishing in the manner of) trained in Cremona and even worked for quite some time (maybe 20 years, Alessandro) in the workshop of Stradivari himself.

I do not claim to know Storioni or his work but I do guess that the riddle Mr. McKay is on this maker, especially when you list 2 attr. Storioni's in the pack.

I showed pics of my Bass to both Fernando Grillo and Sergio Scaramelli and they both said it was a 'beautiful Storioni'. That's a good day for me when the Italians talk like that..

More Cornerless talk here, here and here..

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Originally Posted by Ken McKay

Any similarites here?

Yes, all four have f-holes.

[Ken McKay]

Arnolds post should have been first to give Mr Smith a clue.

Got to admit though this is fun. I should have said the rules up front.

1. if you know the answer, hold out for a while.

2. You don't have to be an expert to play.

3. any little guess is fair game.

Framing the ff holes and it is possible to see the similarities that get lost ordinarily in the overall shape, varnish, etc...

Yes these are all Lorenzo Strorioni instruments.
Clockwise from top right: Ken's cornerless, 1778 cello, 1780-85 violin, 1791 double bass from a photo in strad. The rest of the photos are on cozio.

[Ken McKay]

Look at the next post for the montage.

Left photo is from an L Storioni 1/2 sized violin 1793 http://www.usd.edu/smm/Violins/Stori...oniViolin.html

Top right is a L Storioni 4/4 violin 1782 listed for sale at Kolstein http://kolstein.cybrhost.com/mm5/mer...ry_Code=violin

Bottom left is L Storioni viola "probably" http://www.artfact.com/catalog/viewLot.cfm?sample=4419

Bottom right L Storioni violin 1781 http://laurentius_storioni_cremona.geigenmacher.eu/

[Ken McKay]

Here is the montage

[Ken McKay]

For those interested in violins and music in general Arnold Steinhardt wrote a great book about his life and choosing his L storioni violin over a dG . It comes with a cd of him playing Bach. The violin is a cut down viola and looks odd, but the sound is from heaven. It has a smokey voice that I really like.
http://www.amazon.com/Violin-Dreams-.../dp/0618368922

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Ken McKay

Here is the montage

Nothing is similar to me except that they are all violin family instruments. They are all different. If these are supposed Storioni's as in the first group of 4, how do we really know that they are actual confirmed Storioni's? Because they are claimed to be?

[Ken McKay]

I see the similarities in the second montage. The shapes, curves are similar. The one from Sobethys is "labelled" and is the most suspect.

Bottom right is either genuine or a great copy.

Top left is in the National Music museum, a pretty trusted museum.

Top right is for sale at Kolstein and has a statement " This most rare violin is available with a certificate from the late Jacque Francais of New York"


Bottom left is "labelled Laurentius Storioni fecit Cremonæ 1773".

edit) I can't turn off italics, sorry... I realize that you are right about in stating that they might not be genuine and I have no way of knowing either way except guessing from the description. Isn't it true that there are clues to the authenticity in the descriptions? The one at Kolstein for example has a certificate that is from the late JF, what about any recent certificates? Has it been disputed since?

[Ken McKay]

Ok then look at the four plus a P Guarneri of Venice from the same period.

I see differences, smaller wings for example.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Ken McKay

Ok then look at the four plus a P Guarneri of Venice from the same period.

I see differences, smaller wings for example.

You are comparing them by the wings? Look at the graduation of the f-holes themselves as they open or close towards the bottom or top. To me, they are all different including the varnish and varnishing method.

On them being authentic I think Storioni is 'the fall guy' being that his reputation is inconsistencies in his work. This would make him a good target for fraud buy either making a copy or just calling it his work label or not, certificate of not.

Show me an instrument that passes 8 out of 10 'real' judges (not just the dealer selling it) and then, maybe, you have agreement that it is authentic.

The more modern an instrument, the easier it is usually to ID them. The older the maker, the harder. The ones that were consistent are easier to tell if real or fake. Makers like Storioni and Guarnieri del Gesu that were known for these variations in style have fallen more victim to actual frauds than Strad or Maggini which are easier identifiable or easier to be dis-proven.

This is a Bass forum so most of us are unaware of the 1,000s of actual 'good' fakes out there that have fooled the best of judges. Violins made by BF Fendt Jr., Jacob Fendt (his brother, the other 2 brothers), JF Lott Jr. and JB Vuillaume or his shop and others have made many a fake or rather outright Forgeries that at one time or another passed for the real thing. We are lucky that most Basses are easily discarded from the BIG famous names as they either never made a Bass or the few they did make would look entirely different.

Take Prescott for instance. Most of the Basses I have seen in person or in pictures claiming to be a Prescott were not, MOST. Some of them are but most of them are other Yankee makers. On occasion, it's actually a German Bass mis-attributed as a Yankee or Prescott. I use Prescott as an example because it's a famous name amongst American Bass players and growing worldwide as he made mainly only Bass instruments. About 200 or so Double Basses of which I have not a clue how many have survived or are in playable condition as well as about 500 Church Basses or ' slightly awkward over grown Cellos' that are usually just something to 'hang on the wall'.

Anyway, I don't think I can agree that the 4 Violins in that group picture are the same maker or even the same period. That's my opinion from the pictures shown. Perhaps if I had all 4 of them in my hands to compare overall, I would see it another way. Then again, I'm just a bass guy..

[Ken McKay]

In the above montage, upper left and lower right seem to be similar varnish/ground and age but I agree the others are far different.

As for the variability of Storioni's instruments, look at the outlines of these.

These have different outlines, most obvious at the curve of the top and the bottom. I still see similarities in these Storioni violins. Both from cozio.

Anyway, I love to get you going Ken, in fact I would like to hear an interview of you talking bass, bass bass.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Originally Posted by Ken McKay

Anyway, I love to get you going Ken, in fact I would like to hear an interview of you talking bass, bass bass.

There isn't enough bandwidth on the internet...