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  #1  
Old 03-02-2007, 11:33 AM
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Question Upton Basses

Upton Basses....

I would love to hear what luthiers and other players think of them.
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Last edited by Jeff Gellis; 03-02-2007 at 12:09 PM.
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  #2  
Old 03-02-2007, 11:49 AM
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In that range, the Calin Wultur Basses are at least as good as any Upton Bass. From what I have been told, the Uptons are from Romania made in the Gliga shop just like the Plywoods from JR Music, maker of the Calin Wulters where E.Roy used to work. I bought 6 Corsini Basses for stock and was extremely impressed as were my customers who bought them. I think the Shens are made at least as good if not better than most Romanian Basses and the New Standard line is another good option at over 4k.
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Old 03-02-2007, 03:01 PM
Greg Clinkingbeard Greg Clinkingbeard is offline
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I took my Upton Hybrid bass over to KC Strings recently at the owner's request. Micha said he had heard of the Uptons and would like to check out the competition. The first thing he did was pull one of his Romanian basses from inventory and compare. His bass, http://www.kcstrings.com/bass-rc-williams.html is fully carved, but bears a remarkable resemblance to my Hawkes apart from price.
Same dimensions, exact same scroll etc. There are differences.
The Hawkes lacks a horizontal bar across the back to support the soundpost and the bass bar is smaller, but Misha insisted that they are from the same family tree.
No less than five pro bassists in town have played my bass and given it the thumbs up. My teacher for one considered buying one as a backup.
Another, played several tunes on it at a jam session and raved about it's tone and playability. He thought it was too easy to play, preferring his Prescott lol.
I don't know how they would compare with the Calin Wultur basses, but I suspect neither would be embarrassed.

One of these days, Bob can give my bass his opinion. I would value that highly. Bob, let me know when you're feeling up to it.
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Old 03-02-2007, 03:12 PM
Greg Clinkingbeard Greg Clinkingbeard is offline
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Ken,
I agree that the Calin Wultur does look similar to the Upton basses and being fully carved, they may be better. They are also at least $1000 more. Quality has a price.
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Old 03-02-2007, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Clinkingbeard View Post
Ken,
I agree that the Calin Wultur does look similar to the Upton basses and being fully carved, they may be better. They are also at least $1000 more. Quality has a price.
I was referring to this model;





They are NOT $1,000. more. I think they list for around 2k.
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Old 03-02-2007, 04:07 PM
Greg Clinkingbeard Greg Clinkingbeard is offline
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I knew you would set me straight. That hybrid does look EXACTLY like my bass.
.................................................. ...............................................

Okay, I've settled down. I still like it and think it's a good bass for the money.
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Old 03-04-2007, 04:32 PM
Greg Clinkingbeard Greg Clinkingbeard is offline
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Ken,
I know you have experience with other Calin Wultur basses, but what is your experience with this particular model. I do value your experience here.
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Old 03-04-2007, 06:14 PM
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Ken, thanks for the info. This Gliga on ebay is the spitting image of my Upton hybrid. It seems like the consensus is that the Gliga's are decent basses for the money. I always wondered where my Upton originated, but when I was talking with Gary Birkhamshaw before buying the bass he was cagey about where the bases came from. I'm not sure why he felt this needed to be a secret, seems like a positive point to me.

Anyway, to Jeff's original question; I've been pleased with my bass and I've gotten good comments from folks who have heard it. I like the sound and I find it easy to play. Part of the reason I went with Upton was the lack of local bass shops and little time to make road trips to bigger cities with any real selection of basses. Locally most of what I could find were 1/2 size basses since the only market is the local orchestra programs. There were a couple of 3/4 used Chinese laminates (not Shens) for a lot more than my budget and the shop had little interest in haggling.

I started out planning to spend $1500 on a Medio Fino laminate and talked myself into a Hawkes laminate at $1800. Then good news on my taxes last year and a little side income pushed me up to the hybrid Medio Fino at $2500. Had I realized that I was going to be in that price range in the beginning I'd probably considered some other options, but at my original budget of $1500 there were not a lot of choices, especially since I needed to get something that was reasonably well set up and playable and that I could get shipped to me. I could have done a lot worse and almost did until I came to my senses.

To be honest this is my first bass so I don't have the kind of experience that Ken or some of the other folks here have. It meets my current needs and I should be able to recover most of my costs if I do decide to trade up at some point.
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Old 03-04-2007, 06:51 PM
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Cool 'this model'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Clinkingbeard View Post
Ken,
I know you have experience with other Calin Wultur basses, but what is your experience with this particular model. I do value your experience here.
Personally I have not played one either by Upton or JR. I have talked to Rich at JR (the 'R' in JR) about these and others coming from Gliga and know a bit about them from the inside look as far as construction and Varnish. I was going to buy in the 3/4 sloped shoulder version some for a local School last year but the deal did not happen. I was between these and the Shens and it was a tough decision. I think either Bass would have filled the required needs but the School liked hearing "European Bass" better than "Chinese Bass" for around the same money.

Ron, that Ebay guy buys from JR so that may be the same Bass. You did just fine in your purchase and in the $2500 range. Rest assured, the market is limited and you found one of the better ones for that price.

In my Business I try to buy and represent only what I personally trust. The Calin Wulturs I brought in are fine Basses and if I have a problem, I just call Rich at JR and we work it out. With Shen Basses John is the guy I call over there but sometimes I talk to Paul whom I first met in 1997 with Sam. They too have great customer service.

When I went into this recent Bow business venture I called John and got some good advice from him. Luckily, I am dealing with a good Shop but the Culture is what you have to work with and not 'just' the Shop. If you ask for lower Priced goods and strip down the Bow (like Upton does with them) they will give you the lowest grade Sticks in the Barrel. If you demand only the highest quality and stay on their backs every shipment and pay the extra charges for these extra qualities, they will send you good stuff.

Basses and Bows can be very expensive especially coming from the BG/Slab world. An entry level DB is priced in the Boutique range of the BGs. A Boutique/Vintage/Classic (or anything else you can name it) is priced somewhere between a good Car and your House!

Makers/Suppliers have to struggle to get Basses made to sell for under 4k. I have talked to Arnold about this many times and have some understanding about his operation and why he does what he does the way he does it. The Necks he gets for the Standards are carved up at the Scroll only and the Heel/Block area is completely raw and un-shaped by the neck as well. These Necks can also be used as replacements for other Germanic Basses needing a new Neck as the Heel/Block area is at least 6" tall and ready to fit any Bass. This way, Arnold has total control of the Neck-Set and 'which' actual Neck goes into which Bass. With the Uptons from Gliga, the Necks are in the Bass already and you get only what he gets. For the price he sells them, I don't think 'Neck swapping' is on his option list. With the 'New Standard' Bass, you get what you pay for and the sound, well just TOO good for the money. I was there yesterday and heard one and mentioned that it sounded much more expensive than the price tag to 'MY' ear, for what that's worth..
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Old 03-04-2007, 07:13 PM
Greg Clinkingbeard Greg Clinkingbeard is offline
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Thanks for clarifying. FWIW, I was really holding out for a hybrid LaScala but couldn't afford one. For the foreseeable future, my Upton labeled Romanian bass is just fine.
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Old 03-04-2007, 11:43 PM
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Thanks Ken, I'm a big believer in the old adage of "you get what you pay for" and among the instruments I own, my humble little bass is far and away the most expensive. But I've always tried to at least get something that can be played. There was some real sticker shock when I decided I just had to play bass.

In the meantime, I'll keep window shopping the many fine instruments you and others have posted. I just wish I was close enough to stop by and play one or two. Ah, that's probably not a good idea, that could be the next step on the slippery slope to me living in my bass bag while all my money goes to alimony, child support, and bass payments.
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Old 03-07-2007, 03:09 PM
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I finally got around to changing out the year-old Obligato strings and installed a set of Spirocore Mittels on my Upton hybrid. While the Spiros are still fresh and zingy, I think its pretty clear that this bass likes the higher tension strings (roughly about the same on the G, +5 lbs on the D, +9 lbs on the A, and +10 lbs on the E). More volume and a clearer fundamental. The bass seems to respond faster; and even with my very limited bowing skills, I find the Spiros as easy, or easier, to bow versus the Obligatos. With my current setup I can't detect any real difference in left or right hand effort. So for me, more and clearer sound with no more work. So based on a single sample point, if you have one of these basses or one of their Romanian brethren and haven't used a higher tension string, you may want to give them a try.
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Old 03-07-2007, 07:00 PM
Greg Clinkingbeard Greg Clinkingbeard is offline
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I agree that the Mittels are great on the Upton, but I prefer the Obligatos. They feel a lot nicer to me, although I do think the Mittels may have a bit more punch. Different strokes.
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Old 03-15-2007, 03:21 PM
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If this is out of line, just can it. I don't have any problem with that. I think Upton's might be a little obscure about their sources because of how easy it would be for customers to deal directly with Romanian suppliers. And you can deal with them for about half the price of dealing with Upton. Factory Romanian instruments almost all come from one city. Up until the dissolution of the USSR, they were all built under one roof, now known as the Hora company. There have always been a few independent makers, but the more recent of these, like Gliga, were trained at the state factory in Reghin. So it stands to reason that any instrument coming from Romania, particularly lower price point instruments, is being built by similar methods, if not under the same roof. Buyers of instruments in quantity can probably specify a few small differences, like for instance an Upton Hawkes recently was shown with no notches in the f-holes (Of course that might have been oversight also). Also insturments can be purchased "in the white" and Upton does this so that they can add their own finish. Also they perform the service of setting up the bass.

By and large though, without exclusive contracts, Hora will supply to anyone waving cash. I actually pondered buying a whole shipping container full of Romanian instruments. If you know how to varnish violins and do the set-up and repair work, the import supplier is a no brainer. So it really comes down to the value of the service of the retailer / importer. Lots of violins and basses come out of Romania. Not all are created equally, but they can't be too far apart at entry level prices.

Also if we consider DB's in the white to be a commodity, Uptons can change it's supplier if the supplier is not well known. Suddenly the Hawkes could be made in Czech Republic, or anywhere else.
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Old 03-15-2007, 04:04 PM
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Lightbulb varnish violins and do the set-up and repair work??

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Originally Posted by David Powell View Post
If this is out of line, just can it. I don't have any problem with that. I think Upton's might be a little obscure about their sources because of how easy it would be for customers to deal directly with Romanian suppliers. And you can deal with them for about half the price of dealing with Upton. Factory Romanian instruments almost all come from one city. Up until the dissolution of the USSR, they were all built under one roof, now known as the Hora company. There have always been a few independent makers, but the more recent of these, like Gliga, were trained at the state factory in Reghin. So it stands to reason that any instrument coming from Romania, particularly lower price point instruments, is being built by similar methods, if not under the same roof. Buyers of instruments in quantity can probably specify a few small differences, like for instance an Upton Hawkes recently was shown with no notches in the f-holes (Of course that might have been oversight also). Also insturments can be purchased "in the white" and Upton does this so that they can add their own finish. Also they perform the service of setting up the bass.

By and large though, without exclusive contracts, Hora will supply to anyone waving cash. I actually pondered buying a whole shipping container full of Romanian instruments. If you know how to varnish violins and do the set-up and repair work, the import supplier is a no brainer. So it really comes down to the value of the service of the retailer / importer. Lots of violins and basses come out of Romania. Not all are created equally, but they can't be too far apart at entry level prices.

Also if we consider DB's in the white to be a commodity, Uptons can change it's supplier if the supplier is not well known. Suddenly the Hawkes could be made in Czech Republic, or anywhere else.
David, you always come up with this theory stuff. The price of the Raw un-varnished Bass is less than the work to be performed here once it arrives.

I suggest you buy your container of Basses and let us know how you do. It is easy to say these things but planing a FB and cutting a Bridge is not for the novice by any means.

I have some Basses coming in soon from the Gliga factory via JR Music. A Plywood Corsini style and a Hybrid Panormo (aka Hawkes) model but Varnished by the Calin Wultur shop. The Hybrid is Plywood back only with solid bent Maple Ribs.

Gliga and Wultur have ther own shops. It doesn't matter where they were trained. Also, I don't think everything from one country is exactly the same and that goes for Romania, Hungary, China Germany, Italy etc.

What matters is the final product, workmanship inside and out, materials and the final tonal musical results.

I will post pics in a month or so after they come in and I do the basic set-up. I will be fitting the Bridge (no adjusters), setting the Post and adjusting the playability and I advertise 'Basic set-up' only. I have my reasons for this and have been successful with it. I have heard too many stories or people changing Bridges, adjusters, Tail pieces, strings, end pins, and more to want to be part of that club. This way, I sell it playable and the customer can pick his favorite guy and not have to pay for it twice.

When you deal with the Likes of Arnold, Jeff or Nick it usually only needs to be done once. I have most of my personal work done by Arnold and then some by Jeff as he is available so you can take my word for it. Find the best guy for the Job, do it only once and avoid paying double.

I get offers from time to time for Instruments direct from Shops and usually look and then keep walking. It is a tough business to be in and I respect those doing it successfully.

David, this was a good topic to bring up. Would you buy an Upton and then take it to Arnold for his Bridge, Graphite Rods and new fingerboard adding almost 100% more to the cost or... Just buy from the guy who's work you like most?

I was going thru this same set-up thing myself a few months ago with my Mystery Bass. Biase is doing the work but now I like how Arnold has done a few Basses for me in the last couple of years. I was going to have Paul do the neck Graft, then take it to Arnold for Graphite rods and then back to Biase for the FB and completion. With the Bridge I was going to have it made Blank and then have Arnold put his adjusters in it.

THEN, I looked at My Gilkes Bridge cut by Biase in 1982 still good except the Neck was moved out and needed a taller Bridge AND my Martini has a Biase Bridge from 3 Years ago and looks and works fine..

Then I thought, no way!! Biase does and has done just fine for me since 1975 or so and just because Arnold has some new Hip stuff, there is no reason to take and split the Job from a veteran like Biase and maybe muddy up the waters relationship wise.

I called Biase and apologized for even thinking of doing that and told him I want his work all the way on that Bass as that was why I gave him the Job in the first place.

Ah.. did I go off topic here?
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Old 03-16-2007, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
What matters is the final product, workmanship inside and out, materials and the final tonal musical results.
I just got back from a 2,000 mile road trip and having lots of time to think I came to the same conclusion. It's not relevant where shop XX gets the raw material, it's the final product that matters and if they're willing to stand behind it, that's what counts.

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Ah.. did I go off topic here?
Probably, but it's your sandbox . It was a good point just the same. You're fortunate to have a selection of great luthiers to patronize. Out here in the wild west, there's one guy locally - a retired orchestra teacher who did a fine job on a setup on a violin for me a few years ago, but I don't know how his work is on a bass. He might be great, but for my first bass I wasn't prepared to take the risk. Now that I have some idea of what a decent setup should feel and sound like, I might give him a try on a second bass, if I could figure out how to hide a second bass from my wife
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Old 03-16-2007, 01:07 PM
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Cool Good set-up guy..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Lacey View Post
You're fortunate to have a selection of great luthiers to patronize. Out here in the wild west, there's one guy locally - a retired orchestra teacher who did a fine job on a setup on a violin for me a few years ago, but I don't know how his work is on a bass. He might be great, but for my first bass I wasn't prepared to take the risk. Now that I have some idea of what a decent setup should feel and sound like, I might give him a try on a second bass, if I could figure out how to hide a second bass from my wife

I would like to hear from Arnold who is not only a player but one of the top Bass Luthiers in the country if not the world. Maybe there are 50-100 guys world wide who do his level of work and maybe only 5-10% can do better. Maybe it would be nice to make a list to see how many are out there BUT they must be at the level to restore old Classic Basses with good proven results.

On the Arnold thing, he has trained two other Luthiers that I know of. One is Zach Martin and the other is Jed Kriegel who works in the shop currently. Jed does great work as I have seen this for myself. Being 20+ years younger than Arnold, we will be looking to him in the future like some New Yorkers now see Gage and Merchant instead of Traeger who trained them decades ago. The trade must be passed on and on.

If your local guy does good set-ups, there is no guarantee he can do good restorations. That's like saying a person can patch a cut on the finger but can he do surgery on your Heart or Brain. In the Medical field they have specialists for every organ of your Body. In Bass restoration, although not as life threatening as medicine, you have one Restorer for everything. It's good to have someone who knows just about everything and who knows your Bass as your Doctor may know your body, hopefully.
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Old 03-16-2007, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
If your local guy does good set-ups, there is no guarantee he can do good restorations.
I've never had a bass restored but after reading about the work you've had done, I totally agree. It appears to take both the skill to do the physical work, which looks to be at least a level or two beyond basic setup work, and more importantly, a deep knowledge of the instrument to know what is appropriate to do and what is not.

My local guy may have been fine for setup but the fact that the shop where he works had mostly 1/2 size basses, and the two 3/4 size basses on hand were way overpriced, made me reluctant. They mostly cater to the local school band and orchestra programs. I sure wouldn't take him a restoration without seeing examples of his work. To be fair, I haven't asked him to do any work on my bass and based on his reputation I'd expect him to be up front about what he thinks he can or can't do.

I'd be interested in Arnold's and Jeff's take on how to evaluate a luthier before committing to one; either for setup or restoration. Getting recommendations via internet discussion groups seems to work only for big cities and even those are sometimes scarce.

Now -- that's off topic . Feel free to move some of this over to the Lutherie section since it's independent of the seller of the bass.
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Old 03-29-2007, 06:47 PM
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I have had the opportunity to compare my Upton Hawkes Hybrid to my teacher's 200 year old German carved bass. I started studying with Bassist extraordinaire, Mike Richmond. He played both basses and this is what I heard. FWIW

ARCO
200 year old German Bass - Very mellow top end, there was no lack of top end but it was very easy on the ears. Scooped mid range. That is, has a quality to the mid range that colors the sound in pronounced way. I would describe it as a distinct and unique voice for a double bass. Tight and full lowend. This bass disperses it's sound in a way that surrounds you. You get directionality from the mids and highs but the low end surrounds you, if that makes any sense.

Dec. 2006 Upton Hawkes Hybrid - 20% louder than the fully carved vintage bass, top end was very pronounced. Not obnoxious but not mellow. Midrange and bottom were pretty well balanced but without a distinct complexity or distinct personality. It sounds like a very good bass but not one that you would instantly be able to identify as having a completely identifiable character. This bass disperses it's sound very directionally.

Pizz.
200 year old German Carved Bass - tons of growl- holy cow. Great warm bottom. Midrange uniqueness less prevalent in pizzicato playing.

Dec. 2006 Upton Hawkes Hybrid - once again, substantially louder. More punch in the low end. I assume that's a function of the loudness difference. Brighter than the German Bass.

Conclusion
In the hands of Mike Richmond, that carved German bass sounds rediculously good. The distinct and complex character of the sound make listening to it a joy.
The Upton sounded very good. I mean very good. Not complex but still very musical and pleasing.
I guess a Beaujolais Noveau vs a fine red at it's prime would be the best comparison I can come up with. Certainly, not junk by any account and I will be able to grow musically with this bass.
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Old 03-29-2007, 07:19 PM
Greg Clinkingbeard Greg Clinkingbeard is offline
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Jeff,
Very interesting comparison and similar to my experience as well.
My teacher has two basses.
One, a 19th century carved bass, probably German. My Hawkes is much louder and fuller sounding, although it lacks the deepest fundamental of the older bass.
The other is a 7/8 carved Rodier that Bob Branstetter played for many years, so it is tuned to perfection. Both basses are wearing Obligatos at the moment. The Hawkes is about equal in volume and has a similar tonality, but lacks in a couple of areas. First, the Rodier is quicker. It has a pronounced edge to the attack where my bass is quite a bit slower. Second, my bass lacks the complexity of tone of the older and much more expensive bass. That said, In the few times I've been able to compare side by side, the Hawkes holds its own quite well.

One of these days or months I'll leave it with Bob for a few days to see what he can do to improve it, but I'm in no hurry. For a new bass it feels and sounds pretty darn good, especially for the price.
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