Carpathian Spruce

[Craig Regan]

I noticed a post by the Martin Sheridan, he describes a bass he made with Carpathian Mountain Spruce. Could someone explain some of the properties of this wood in regards to bass making.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

I don't believe it's any different from typical European spruce. It grows in the Carpathians, so they call it Carpathian. Compared to our native spruces, I think it's heavier than Engelmann and lighter than Sitka; stiffer cross-grain than Sitka, but not as stiff as Red Spruce.

[Martin Sheridan]

Sacconi claims that Stradivari thought that Carpathian Mountain maple was better tone wood and that Stradivari used it when he could. I'm not sure how he would know that? Some of my wood guys who have cut wood all over the world (including the Carpathian mountains) say that you can't tell one from the other with the naked eye dispite what many people think.

I think this is good tone wood, but I like Canadian red spruce and red maple a lot, and that upper west coast Big Leaf maple is simply beautiful.
I might add that a friend of mine bought some wood from that part of the Carpathian mountains in Russia and it wasn't worth anything but fire wood.

[Ken Smith]

Strad used Carpathian maple? I thought he used Bosnian maple!

Perhaps during a lifetime of making, more than only one species used would be more likely especially since it was not native to Northern Italy.

I have been told that the Romanian instruments are mainly made with Carpathian woods.

These regional areas are comparably small on a Global scale. Like Walnut named NY, PA, VA, OH.. etc., named after the state the exact same tree grew in.

Maybe we are just too hung up on the small details. You think?

[Martin Sheridan]

Those mountains run through the region of Bosnia. And that is where he supposedly got it.

A few years ago some wood cutters were at the VSA and had various woods from all over the world, and invited makers to guess where it came from. Their point, as my friends made to me, is that one can not tell. I think they said there is one exception, but I can't think of what it is right now.

I don't know how many times I've heard dealers and makers say that the wood on such and such instrument came from...........fill in the blank. The wood cutters who have been all over claim this isn't so; that visually you can't say. I've noticed for example that some of the Chinese instruments I've handled look like they have Canadian red spruce, but they don't.
On the other hand some of the Chinese companies claim to sell instruments made with European wood. I don't know if that is true or not, but they charge more for them.

A few years ago I was talking to a wood cutter from the north country and he told me this story. A friend of his ordered some wood from Europe that was advertised as "Bosnian rarity". It was maple with a price tag way above what one would normally pay. When it arrived at his shop it still had the north country wood cutters name stamped on it( And to boot it wasn't even maple, but a highly flamed birch. I think it was cut in Michigan if I remember correctly, sold to the European dealer, who turned around and sold it back to a maker in the states as a rare Bosnian maple.

Another friend of mine went to a well known shop in Germany which sold woods to the US. He told me that all the uncut logs at the place where marked with stamps that said, USA. So I guess they could say truthfully that their wood was from Germany (having made a round trip).

[Ken Smith]

I do have one old Shen that does not have Chinese wood. Either Canadian or European but the couldn't remember at the time. Some of the New Amati models I have had wood that was not Chinese looking either. More British Columbian or European looking.

Maybe weight of the wood and where it grew have something to do with the subtle differences, maybe?

I have several English Basses and the wood looks and feels different on each one. For the Maples, the Hart and 4/4 Gamba look similar. The Gamba is light weighted and the Hart is heavier. The Hart seems thicker but as we checked the Gamba and it is not as thin as it looks measuring away from the edges which are worn to some extent. The modern Lott model I have is closer to the Gamba in look but is heavy in weight like the Hart as far as the maple is concerned. The Lott model I was told is Bosnian Maple. The Gilkes on the other hand has more of a wavy type flame/curl like on the back of a Strad.

One dealer once noted that it was the great English wood that built the ships that helped to make the English Basses so good using the same wood. Now, is this the Back/Rib wood (Maple/Sycamore) or is he referring to Pine, Spruce and Deal, the Top woods?

The Top of my Hart is considered to be American Yellow Pine (or pitch pine?). The new Lott model is old Pitch pine that was taken from an old support beam about 200 years old. The Gilkes is beautifully grained Spruce I assume and has never cracked other than a few edge type splits. The 4/4 Gamba is extremely fine grained Spruce of which the rings can barely be counted by the naked eye.

My Storioni appears to have the look of American flamed Sugar Maple on the Back and burled Veneer on the Ribs. I have also seen Bass Guitars made in Canada years back that was reportedly made from Yugoslavian Birdseye Maple. Where there is Birdseye, there is Flame in the same forest. I was told by that maker that this was the best Maple available. It looked 100% exactly like American Sugar Maple.

I have a newish Hungarian/Romanian 5-string Bass that is either a 4/4 or 5/4 in body size with a normal string length. The lower bouts being over 30" and the rest in proportion. This Bass is lighter in weight than most of my English Basses if not all of them. The Back and Ribs are highly flamed and the Back is carved. How can this Bass be so light? Even the Neck/Scroll is well flamed. I had another large Bass of similar origin a while back and even slightly smaller, it was heavier than this Bass.

Now, I have been told that maple wood for Basses with high flame from the Romanians are hard to come by yet I see many of the larger or antiqued basses made with this wood. Are they only using the prettier woods on the 'special' type basses and not the production ones? The Calin Wultur basses made in Romania are quite light by comparison but rarely high flamed. Is it just the woods or the graduations and interior work as well?

By the way, this is totally on topic as the origin or woods are so misunderstood and often misrepresented as well.

A few years ago I was talking with a wood supplier and he told me a cute story of a recent trip he had made. He was out in Western Pennsylvania early one morning having breakfast at a Truck Stop on the way to a Lumber Mill to look at Logs. A Truck pulls in the Lot loaded with Cherry Logs headed West as well. My friend asks the Driver about his Load and where it was going. He was told that it was Cherry Logs cut in New York and on the way to a Mill in Pennsylvania. The famous cabinet wood known as 'Black Cherry' grows only in the Allegheny Forest in N.W.PA.. This wood from NY was most likely cut, milled and sold as PA Black Cherry. Only the Driver, my friend and the Mill would know this Lie! Although Cherry grows all over the world, the Lumber field usually only calls it 'Black Cherry' if grown in a specific region. American Cherry and PA, NY etc. based on the state of origin is the more usual description used.

Welcome to the world of wood!

[Martin Sheridan]

Ken, thanks for your comments.
Regarding English wood I just read a book on the battle of Trafalgar and it contained a lot of information on the techniques and woods used in ship building by the English in the 18th and 19th centuries. I've taken the book back to the library, so right off hand I can't remember the name or the author. However, the author states that the English used so much wood in the making of ships in the 18th century that they had to import wood from Russia, Prussia, the United States and elsewhere. Apparently they used up all of their oak which was the main hardwood used (and of course not used in musical instruments), but they also had to import deal because of it's scarcity.

I read somewhere that most of the maple used by the French in Mirecourt came from the US.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan

Ken, thanks for your comments.
Regarding English wood I just read a book on the battle of Trafalgar and it contained a lot of information on the techniques and woods used in ship building by the English in the 18th and 19th centuries. I've taken the book back to the library, so right off hand I can't remember the name or the author. However, the author states that the English used so much wood in the making of ships in the 18th century that they had to import wood from Russia, Prussia, the United States and elsewhere. Apparently they used up all of their oak which was the main hardwood used (and of course not used in musical instruments), but they also had to import deal because of it's scarcity.

I read somewhere that most of the maple used by the French in Mirecourt came from the US.

Interesting. I know that at least 2 of my English Basses at have Pine Tops of American wood. The French thing is new to me. I would have suspected a similar source of wood as used by the Germans. Still, wood was a world product so any country could have imported wood at any time. How about the French and German Bows? All imported wood in one form or another.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

British ships used to sail to the Americas laden with manufactured goods, mostly made of metal (heavy). On their return they would fill the ship's hold with logs, which were nearly free in the forested colonies. The logs served as ballast, and were then unloaded in England to become furniture, ships, instruments, etc. Eventually they (and the colonial farmers) managed to deforest nearly the entire Eastern part of North America.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

British ships used to sail to the Americas laden with manufactured goods, mostly made of metal (heavy). On their return they would fill the ship's hold with logs, which were nearly free in the forested colonies. The logs served as ballast, and were then unloaded in England to become furniture, ships, instruments, etc. Eventually they (and the colonial farmers) managed to deforest nearly the entire Eastern part of North America.

So, that's why there are no Trees in NYC except for Central Park.. Ah hah..