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Old 01-16-2017, 03:27 PM
Thomas Barnwell Thomas Barnwell is offline
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Default What have we got?

Well, we bought a old solid wood bass from a small music shop a couple of days ago. It had belonged to a local music teacher who had had it "from the 1940s" -- his daughter had sold all of his instruments as a group.

We know very little about solid wood basses and neither did the shop. My wife is the bass player and we live pretty much exclusively in the land of plywood Kays (bluegrass). She has 5 Kays (39 S-51, 40 S-51, 61 S-51 plus a 48 3/4 and 46 1/4) -- she is a well equipped queen of the bluegrass parking lot and stage. She does also have a cheap newish Eastern European solid 1/2 flatback, but it is nothing to write home about. I know that makes us visitors from the dark side here.

In any case, here are some pictures of our new bass.







It has no label. From the internet, I am guessing it is a Czech factory base of some sort. I have seen a number on-line decorated exactly and similarly to this one. Most of the ones I have found have either a year or an approximate year attributed to them, but I have no idea how that being done. This is quite different from our other vintage instruments (guitars, banjo, mandolins, and basses) where we usually have quite a lot of information.

So what is it? Who made it? When was it made? Where does it lie in the universe of orchestral basses. Any information and opinions in this area would be greatly appreciated!

Best,

-Tom

PS
This has all got us thinking about the broader world of basses and the rather odd corner -- bluegrass -- where with usually reside. Bluegrass is weird with regard to basses. We were out jamming last night at Everett's Music Barn -- a well known long running roots bluegrass operation. One of the guys there -- a bass player for a well known touring band and bass luthier/trader of some repute -- came and jammed with us for awhile (not on bass). During the evening, the session was visited by at least two old Herringbones and three 37 D-18s, a Lloyd Loar F5, and two old flatheads (including an original 5-string Granada) -- all owned basically by hillbillies of various sorts who play them. So I ask him what he could tell me about our new bass (it was not there -- my wife was playing her Kay). The answer was basically "nothing." Old Kays were all that were on his radar, but he could certainly tell us about them. So isn't that weird? I have not added it up, but there was north of $1M of old instruments -- guitars, banjos, and mandolins -- and the bass was the old Kay. AND, it was thought to be perfect because it was old, a Kay and special because it is a 5-string. I think this S-51 is a bass that is basically considered to be a waste of wood by "serious" bass players. I love stuff like this!

Thanks again.
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Old 01-16-2017, 10:00 PM
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Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
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Ok, first, what is a 48 3/4 and 46 1/4? Couldn't understand that.

I believe this bass is German. Basses for the most part here in USA called Czech basses are mostly basses made on either side of the German-Czech border and mostly made by German speaking makers. On occasion there are some Czechs working on there as well.

These are made in shops usually and sometimes with outworkers making parts and assembled in the shop. These are not usually made by a specific single maker.

The Tuners tell me that it is probably a post war bass as I have the exact same tuners on my 1970 Pollmann, similar ones on my 1980 Pollmann and had there on my Wenzel Wilfer bass, probably post war. I have also seen these on East German basses made by Saumer for the Morelli brand. Other brand names created by importers have been used for these same basses as well.

The main centers for basses like this were made in Markneukirchen and some in Bubenreuth in Bavaria. Pre-War, they were also made on the Czech side by the same families in and around Shoenbach, also known as the Sudetenland, the German speaking area across the Czech border.

Read this; http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=2176

Now, I am not from these areas or lived there for centuries to know all this but, I have read and studied what I could find in person and in reading. Most can do the same.

Here are two actual Czech basses made in the Viennese style from the 19th century, c.1850. Flush ribs and beautiful scrolls as well as transparent varnishes without shading or artificial aging. Totally different than the German border basses imported into the USA since the turn of the 19th-20th centuries.
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...gue/index.html
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...ina/index.html

Basses in the 18th century might differ some from those in the 19th and also 20th centuries. As time goes on, so do the style of double basses.
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Old 01-16-2017, 10:12 PM
Thomas Barnwell Thomas Barnwell is offline
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Ok, first, what is a 48 3/4 and 46 1/4? Couldn't understand that.
Thanks -- that is exactly the kind of information we were looking for. The line above should have read

1948 3/4 Kay bass and 1946 1/4 Kay bass.

Thanks again,

-Tom
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Old 01-17-2017, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Thomas Barnwell View Post
Thanks -- that is exactly the kind of information we were looking for. The line above should have read

1948 3/4 Kay bass and 1946 1/4 Kay bass.

Thanks again,

-Tom
Don't play that bass outdoors. It will get ruined easily. It i a real bass made to be played in a Symphony hall. I had a couple up to my shop a year ago and traded one of these kinds of basses for an old Kay that someone was trying to unload. I paid them the difference and bought the Kay to trade in the deal. They came up from the south as well.

That bass, considered to be a Morelli brand full sized orchestra bass was sold to a dealer and then fitted up for a Symphony player. That's where these kinds of basses belong.

Regardless of the intended brand, shop, maker or size of the bass, this is a carved bass that is sensitive to weather and humidity changes. Unlike your Kay basses that can be tossed around, the more you damage the original finish, the wood, edges or what have you, you will be decreasing its value each step of the way. Repairs have to done only by a qualified Violin trained Bass Luthier. If done poorly, re-repairing is 2-3x the cost to un-do and re-do and each time, loosing value as well if these repairs are visible.

Call me if you want to sell the bass and get something more suitable for the venue you would use a bass in. In the mean time, be careful not to slap the bass or scratch the original varnish off in any way. Do not do tricks with this bass or attempt to stand on it either.
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Old 01-17-2017, 03:00 PM
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Lightbulb TB and Paul Toenniges..

I can't post there. I was banned for telling the truth and telling off the Mod that tried to silence me.

This bass of yours and many others attributed to Paul Toenniges were actually made by Wenzle Wilfer in Germany. Imported by Paul Toenniges and re-worked by him.

How do I know? I have here a bass with a WBW/Wenzle B. Wilfer labeled "made for Paul Toenniges" and is being sold as a Paul Toenniges/Wilfer bass. This is a full sized bass but Wilfer is one of the makers that supplied basses like yours.

Some were sold to and labeled in NYC as Juzek, some as Vitale Imports and any other shop that bought basses as no one supplier could buy all that a shop could produce or with their affiliated surrounding shops.

The people on TB are miss informed much of the time. An ounce of knowledge can turn into a mountain of crap in a minute. Paul Wurburton is a friend of mine and loved the work of Paul Toenniges but also, like many other bass brads he and others lover, they didn't know the 'business' of these basses. makers, shops or brands. I studied them a little deeper with the help of 50 years of experience and now with the internet.

You are welcome to say what I said and mention my name on TB. I know what I know. If you come here with that bass, I can show you the one that Wilfer made for Paul Toenniges. I have owned many basses from several of the Wilfer family, Hofner, Framus and B.Lang I and II. Seeing is believing they say and I have seen and examined a lot of them. There are still many other ghost makers out there from the past that when you see the name as different from what you first believed, your mind takes a twist inside thinking that you didn't know it all or, was this another just seller of basses made by another.

"Oh what a tangled web we weave When first we practice to deceive!" .

lol.. but true.
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Old 01-17-2017, 03:43 PM
Thomas Barnwell Thomas Barnwell is offline
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Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Don't play that bass outdoors. It will get ruined easily. It i a real bass made to be played in a Symphony hall. I had a couple up to my shop a year ago and traded one of these kinds of basses for an old Kay that someone was trying to unload. I paid them the difference and bought the Kay to trade in the deal. They came up from the south as well.

That bass, considered to be a Morelli brand full sized orchestra bass was sold to a dealer and then fitted up for a Symphony player. That's where these kinds of basses belong.

Regardless of the intended brand, shop, maker or size of the bass, this is a carved bass that is sensitive to weather and humidity changes. Unlike your Kay basses that can be tossed around, the more you damage the original finish, the wood, edges or what have you, you will be decreasing its value each step of the way. Repairs have to done only by a qualified Violin trained Bass Luthier. If done poorly, re-repairing is 2-3x the cost to un-do and re-do and each time, loosing value as well if these repairs are visible.

Call me if you want to sell the bass and get something more suitable for the venue you would use a bass in. In the mean time, be careful not to slap the bass or scratch the original varnish off in any way. Do not do tricks with this bass or attempt to stand on it either.
Perhaps I should tell you a bit more about myself. I spent my life as a university acoustics researcher -- my Ph.D. is from MIT and when I retired I was a chaired professor at Georgia Tech.

My wife and I have collected and studied vintage American acoustic instruments for 40+ years -- we have a couple of hundred. If this turned out to be a $10K instruments as some have suggested (not me), it would be one of the least valuable instruments we own -- we have several that are ten times that much. All of our living spaces are totally temperature and humidity controlled, and our transport (truck) and travel (RV) vehicles are too. Our RV has a separate externally accessible compartment just for the transport and protection of our instruments. All the things you say about that bass are also true in spades for our old, high end guitars, mandolins, and mandocellos -- which are much more valuable.

We do all this so they can be used -- when conditions allow -- to make music where the music is made. We know everyone has passion for their own musical genres, but ours essentially never occurs in symphony halls. To each his own.

I am always interested in what people have to say, and I appreciate your input. But I am really trying to research the history of the instrument -- can you give me something more there?

Thanks again,

-Tom
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Old 01-17-2017, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Thomas Barnwell View Post
I am always interested in what people have to say, and I appreciate your input. But I am really trying to research the history of the instrument -- can you give me something more there?

Thanks again,

-Tom
I would put this at Post War Germany, Beubenreuth (Bavaria) by possibly Wenzle Wilfer or similar shop. Also, Josef? Saumer made similar instruments in East Germany post war that are branded Saumer Morelli in the upper back BUT, not with that purfled design. Benedict Lang I in Shoenbach in the first half of the 20th century made basses like this but your bass is not that old. His son or Nephew Benedict Lang II in Mittenwald made similar basses too.

The safe bet I think would be Wenzle Wilfer c.1950-1970. If I get the chance to see the bass in person, maybe I would know more, or maybe not.

This is my old W.Wilfer with the same tuners as well. I sold it in 1974 or so to this guy. I recorded with the Glenn Miller band with it and he toured with Liza Minnelli with it. https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...b0&oe=590F300D

The Tuners are probably Rubners and I have some on my 1980 Pollmann as well that have a screw in the center so same maker of basses, 1970/1980 and same gears but a decade apart.
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Old 01-17-2017, 04:20 PM
Thomas Barnwell Thomas Barnwell is offline
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I would put this at Post War Germany, Beubenreuth (Bavaria) by possibly Wenzle Wilfer or similar shop. Also, Josef? Saumer made similar instruments in East Germany post war that are branded Saumer Morelli in the upper back BUT, not with that purfled design. Benedict Lang I in Shoenbach in the first half of the 20th century made basses like this but your bass is not that old. His son or Nephew Benedict Lang II in Mittenwald made similar basses too.

The safe bet I think would be Wenzle Wilfer c.1950-1970. If I get the chance to see the bass in person, maybe I would know more, or maybe not.

This is my old W.Wilfer with the same tuners as well. I sold it in 1974 or so to this guy. I recorded with the Glenn Miller band with it and he toured with Liza Minnelli with it. https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...b0&oe=590F300D

The Tuners are probably Rubners and I have some on my 1980 Pollmann as well that have a screw in the center so same maker of basses, 1970/1980 and same gears but a decade apart.
Wow, that is great! Thanks you so much!

Best,

-Tom
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