Ken's Corner (Bass Forums Sponsored By KSB)

Go Back   Ken's Corner (Bass Forums Sponsored By KSB) > Double Basses > Luthier's Corner

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 01-15-2009, 07:56 PM
Martin Sheridan Martin Sheridan is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 11-05-2008
Location: Sycamore, Illinois
Posts: 101
Martin Sheridan is on a distinguished road
Default Italian f holes

Stradivari and before him, the Amati, had definite ideas about F hole placement. Stradivari's original designs still exist showing how and where he marked the fs. In fact these marking are still visible inside, on the top inside, of the Servais cello. Personally, I'm unclear about how he arrived at the exact placing, but the top holes appear to be in the center of the Cs and top curve of the bottom hole is in line with the bottom of the purfling as it curves into the bottom C corner. In fact this is one thing that experts look for when identifying classic Italian instruments. This was almost always ahered to, but Guarneri del Gesu made a few exceptions where you will see the bottom hole somewhat higher although the top holes follow the Amati/Stradivari principle.

Now when it comes to basses,there are so few from the classical period extant that I don't know if applies. If anyone has a good picture of the
1690 J. B. Rogeri take a look at it and report back as it's believed that he studied with Nicolo Amati and so he probably would have incorporated this into his basses (bass?). I've seen that bass and right now I can't remember.

I had a very old Italian bass in my shop once that had the longest F holes I've ever seen, not particularly wide, but very long. You would have thought that the top wouldn't have stood the strain, but it was in fine condition and the sound was quite good.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-15-2009, 09:56 PM
Matthew Tucker's Avatar
Matthew Tucker Matthew Tucker is offline
Senior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-19-2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 427
Matthew Tucker is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Skype™ to Matthew Tucker
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan View Post
Stradivari and before him, the Amati, had definite ideas about F hole placement. [...] This was almost always ahered to, .
But do we know whether his ideas were based on an aesthetic design principle that happened to work OK, so he stuck with it ... or whether he tried dozens of different sizes and placements (keeping all other things equal, of course) until he found the BEST one? I tend to think the former is more likely. We don't have any evidence of strads with experimental FF hole placement, do we?

In relation to basses, there are SO MANY variations in corpus volume, plate shape, string length, top graduation, internal bracing, rib depth, wood choice etc that I can't see how any of the placement rules Strad used could apply just like that.

In fact if there was an optimum FF placing and size for a bass, you'd think that someone would have found it by now!

Actually that's what I love about basses. The lack of a formula.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-16-2009, 04:15 PM
Martin Sheridan Martin Sheridan is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 11-05-2008
Location: Sycamore, Illinois
Posts: 101
Martin Sheridan is on a distinguished road
Default more placement

I don't know that anyone knows for sure if this was aesthetics or acoustics, but they do arrive at the the acoustic center of the instrument more or less.

I've always loved basses partly because of the variations in size and design. I'm glad we don't all have to make the same one over and over again, yet it is sometimes a source of frustration that the bass you just spent six months on is too big or too small for someone, but they always fit somebody! This is true also with violas which vary a lot in size and shape. Violins and cellos are almost completely standardized.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-16-2009, 11:20 PM
Matthew Tucker's Avatar
Matthew Tucker Matthew Tucker is offline
Senior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-19-2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 427
Matthew Tucker is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Skype™ to Matthew Tucker
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan View Post
I don't know that anyone knows for sure if this was aesthetics or acoustics, but they do arrive at the the acoustic center of the instrument more or less.
What's the "acoustic centre"?
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-17-2009, 10:10 AM
Ken McKay Ken McKay is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-04-2007
Location: Traverse City Michigan
Posts: 169
Ken McKay is on a distinguished road
Default

Matthew do you have Sacconi's book?

Should I post my f-hole taping experiment here, it is kinda anti-climatic?
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-18-2009, 03:33 PM
Matthew Tucker's Avatar
Matthew Tucker Matthew Tucker is offline
Senior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-19-2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 427
Matthew Tucker is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Skype™ to Matthew Tucker
Default

No i don't have Sacconi's book. Is it a bible I should have?

I'd love to see/hear your experiment. But I fear we're derailing the thread a bit...
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-18-2009, 04:06 PM
Matthew Heintz Matthew Heintz is offline
Junior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 12-22-2008
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 20
Matthew Heintz is on a distinguished road
Default

Other than aesthetics, is there a reason that we don't see more open peg boxes? It seems like the ease of string changes and reduced scroll-weight would be particularly nice for basses with extensions. In any case, I'd add that to my list of "features" that I'd want in a bass (for whatever that's worth).
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-18-2009, 04:29 PM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
Senior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-22-2007
Location: Putnam County, NY
Posts: 453
Arnold Schnitzer is on a distinguished road
Default

It makes the scroll really weak and prone to breakage. That's why you don't see that feature more often.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-18-2009, 06:25 PM
Matthew Heintz Matthew Heintz is offline
Junior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 12-22-2008
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 20
Matthew Heintz is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
It makes the scroll really weak and prone to breakage. That's why you don't see that feature more often.
Fair enough. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-19-2009, 02:36 AM
Ken McKay Ken McKay is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-04-2007
Location: Traverse City Michigan
Posts: 169
Ken McKay is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker View Post
No i don't have Sacconi's book. Is it a bible I should have?

I'd love to see/hear your experiment. But I fear we're derailing the thread a bit...

From the Sacconi book, " The position of the ff holes is as fundamental to the quality and power of the sound of the instrument as the archings are. For this reason in order to position the ff holes correctly, Stradivari used to study their dimensions and exact position for every single model by means of a series of trials and experiments until he reached a definitive solution. He would then establish this by a special drawing on paper which reproduced the centre (bridge area) of the instrument with its ff holes correctly positioned. This positioning was also determined by finding the point of balance of the finished belly without the bass-bar having been atached. In fact in my experience, the notches of the ff holes always occur in the ideal transverse line which divides the upper and lower surfaces into two areas of equal weight." This is what Sacconi called the acoustic center which is which is south of the measurement center.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 01-19-2009, 06:12 AM
Matthew Tucker's Avatar
Matthew Tucker Matthew Tucker is offline
Senior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-19-2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 427
Matthew Tucker is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Skype™ to Matthew Tucker
Default

Sounds like a reasonable theory, and easy to test. So do we suppose Sacconi removed the bass bars of dozens of strads to develop this experience? But why with no bass bar? And so if Strad chose to put his notches at the N-S balance point, how did he come up with length, width, shape, angle? Is the balance point observation a convenient rule of thumb or is there an underlying functional factor?

Or did Strad cut his FFs the way he liked them to look, then graduate his tops so that they balance across the FF notches?

Well it still sounds neat, so maybe I'll do that measurement on a top next time I have one off. How does your cornerless bass rate in that dimension, Ken? Is the top still off? Can you measure it?
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 01-19-2009, 09:47 AM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Cool me? my top?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker View Post
Sounds like a reasonable theory, and easy to test. So do we suppose Sacconi removed the bass bars of dozens of strads to develop this experience? But why with no bass bar? And so if Strad chose to put his notches at the N-S balance point, how did he come up with length, width, shape, angle? Is the balance point observation a convenient rule of thumb or is there an underlying functional factor?

Or did Strad cut his FFs the way he liked them to look, then graduate his tops so that they balance across the FF notches?

Well it still sounds neat, so maybe I'll do that measurement on a top next time I have one off. How does your cornerless bass rate in that dimension, Ken? Is the top still off? Can you measure it?
You mean MY Cornerless old Bass of Ken McKay's new one? Mine is off at the moment for restoration. This bass is fantastic and hundreds of years old so there is no speculation on how it 'WILL' sound when it breaks in or matures. It is 'well' broken in already.

On your Strad question (how did he come up with length, width, shape, angle?), we must remember that he was able to learn from the 3rd generation of the Amati's. He didn't have to invent the Violin, just 'tweak' it some!

One problem here that was not mentioned about Strad is that 'most' Strads have been altered in many ways including graduations by previous repair persons believing that they needed correction. I saw one Strad not long ago that was from 1694 and considered the smaller/early pattern. The Top had already been replaced but by Strad in 1725. Somehow this was either documented or appraised at some point. The workmanship and tone was there even though the Top was from his 'Golden Period'.

If you were asking the other Ken, then ignore all I just said.. Sorry..
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 01-19-2009, 03:39 PM
Matthew Tucker's Avatar
Matthew Tucker Matthew Tucker is offline
Senior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-19-2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 427
Matthew Tucker is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Skype™ to Matthew Tucker
Default


I didn't know the Storioni top was off, and actually i DID meant Ken McKay's cormerless.

But, if the top is off such a nice bass of YOURS, no doubt the restorer will be taking some measurements. So yes, you could have the abovementioned hypothesis tested. Would you be interested to do that?

Are you making a graduation map of the Storioni for your own reference?

Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 01-19-2009, 05:48 PM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Cool well..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker View Post

I didn't know the Storioni top was off, and actually i DID meant Ken McKay's cormerless.

But, if the top is off such a nice bass of YOURS, no doubt the restorer will be taking some measurements. So yes, you could have the above mentioned hypothesis tested. Would you be interested to do that?

Are you making a graduation map of the Storioni for your own reference?

The Storioni itself is as unusual inside as it is outside. Actually, the inside is even more unusual by the specs we have come to know.

1-The current Bass Bar is actually 'along' the grain lines of the Top rather than at a slight angle yet the sound is to die for and the low end volume is actually dangerous if you are too close.

2-The Ribs are 'Laminated' or 'doubled' and look to be original to the Bass judging by the oldest oxidation inside. The outer layer of the Ribs (2 of them only, one per side) are 'flat cut' Burled Veneer. The inner layer is cross grain (from Top to Back) Spruce. The Tone from the Ribs either tapping them or when playing the bass is sweet. The Sound is evident even from the sides of the bass.

3-The current graduations of the Top whether original or altered are strange as well. The outer areas of the Top are actually thicker at the edges than at the center. This is as Arnold mentioned 'reverse graduations'.

4-The old Repairer/s put a large cross grain patch on the treble side of the lower bout Top. This is totally against all the rules in good tone making as are all of the above mentioned items.

When discussing the restoration with Arnold a few days ago we agreed that this Bass sounds too good to mess with some of the unorthodox work inside the bass. We agreed that what is intact and 'sound' should be left alone. What is broken, should be fixed. The area around that cross grain patch has some sinkage up to the G-foot of the Bridge. That patch will come out and some partial mold made to restore it back to its original form or as close as possible. A idea of a total 'gutting' of the old inside work is off the table on this one. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

So, what makes a great Bass sound great? I haven't a clue..

Oh, and as far as F-Hole placement or centering, forget it. This bass was made to be LONGGGG, 44 1/2" string Length with the current neck. Maybe back in the old days it was less with a shorter neck. On this Bass, I have moved the Bridge around quite a bit as far as the length goes. The sound however slightly changed with each Bridge move lost zero quality regardless.

Oh and #5, the Bridge for this Bass is extra wide, maybe 170+mm or so but only requires a 150mm bridge by the spacing of the upper F-Eyes. On the pics of the Fs on this Bass you can see I trimmed off the outer feet of the Bridge on each side. Maybe about 5mm per side. Still, it's too big for this bass as it's made.

Nothing is normal with this bass other than the tuning. oops, no.. it was a 3-string originally and who knows what they used back then for notes.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 01-19-2009, 10:12 PM
Ken McKay Ken McKay is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-04-2007
Location: Traverse City Michigan
Posts: 169
Ken McKay is on a distinguished road
Default

Matthew, my top is glued to the ribs so can't do the experiment. Also keep in mind that the shape of a doulble bass is a little different than a violin with narrower upper bout, so this might not have been applicable to gamba instruments. Strad did make gamba shaped instruments and lots of different types and shapes including cornerless. The sons did not understand Antonio's methods completely according to Sacconi. They miss-interpreted the ff placement when they finished some of the fathers work and placed them in the wrong place according to the fathers method.

The classic cremonese and Brescian methods are probably more related to esthetics than acousitics of the instrument although harmony is harmony. I think that is why Arnold's - knows it when he sees it - statement makes sense to me.

Another interesting comment from Sacconi is that ff holes too far apart are not as bad acoustically as too close together. But keep in mind this is in context of Antonio's system of arching and proportion.

In modern acoustics, which may lead us down the wrong path or not, there is not many body modes that are not effected by ff hole placement or size. The air modes are a part of the acoustic footprint of the sound and also effect the plate modes by coupling with them, but it is extremely complex because of the way the body vibrates. The flexibility of the whole corpus helps lower the main air resonance by its "breathing" or bellows motion. The top and back plates, but mostly the top vibrate like a big piston and also with more complex "islands" creating distinct resonaces along the spectrum that give the bass it's voice or signature.

My opinion is that a combination of esthetics from geometrical harmony and modern acoustics will be able to speed the quest for a newly made bass with old sound. I could be wrong though and might be wasting a great deal of time studying modern acoustics.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 01-19-2009, 10:15 PM
Ken McKay Ken McKay is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-04-2007
Location: Traverse City Michigan
Posts: 169
Ken McKay is on a distinguished road
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
The Storioni itself is as unusual inside as it is outside. Actually, the inside is even more unusual by the specs we have come to know.


2-The Ribs are 'Laminated' or 'doubled' and look to be original to the Bass judging by the oldest oxidation inside. The outer layer of the Ribs (2 of them only, one per side) are 'flat cut' Burled Veneer. The inner layer is cross grain (from Top to Back) Spruce. The Tone from the Ribs either tapping them or when playing the bass is sweet. The Sound is evident even from the sides of the bass.



So, what makes a great Bass sound great? I haven't a clue..



.
I knew that bass had laminated ribs, I could tell by the cracking. It is very interesting to see it in that old of an isntrument.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 01-19-2009, 11:20 PM
Ken McKay Ken McKay is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-04-2007
Location: Traverse City Michigan
Posts: 169
Ken McKay is on a distinguished road
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker View Post
Sounds like a reasonable theory, and easy to test. So do we suppose Sacconi removed the bass bars of dozens of strads to develop this experience? But why with no bass bar? And so if Strad chose to put his notches at the N-S balance point, how did he come up with length, width, shape, angle? Is the balance point observation a convenient rule of thumb or is there an underlying functional factor?

Or did Strad cut his FFs the way he liked them to look, then graduate his tops so that they balance across the FF notches?

Well it still sounds neat, so maybe I'll do that measurement on a top next time I have one off. How does your cornerless bass rate in that dimension, Ken? Is the top still off? Can you measure it?

If you are curious about this and other questions I whould recomend the book highly. Get the original Italian version since you read Italiano.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 01-20-2009, 01:17 AM
Matthew Tucker's Avatar
Matthew Tucker Matthew Tucker is offline
Senior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-19-2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 427
Matthew Tucker is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Skype™ to Matthew Tucker
Default

Thanks for sharing the information about the Storioni. Very interesting. I guess then, that with the reverse graduations, the centre arch must be quite high to support th pressure from the bridge? Unless the thicknesses are just quite thick all over and thicker at the edges.

Do you think the bass bar is original?

Can you describe the linings in the Storioni? are they continuous? Kerfed? Does the spruce lining run the full width of the rib, or stop at the linings? If it was original, I would have though that it would have been full width. What sort of rib thickness did he end up with?
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 01-20-2009, 01:43 AM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Cool humm..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker View Post
Thanks for sharing the information about the Storioni. Very interesting. I guess then, that with the reverse graduations, the centre arch must be quite high to support th pressure from the bridge? Unless the thicknesses are just quite thick all over and thicker at the edges.

Do you think the bass bar is original?

Can you describe the linings in the Storioni? are they continuous? Kerfed? Does the spruce lining run the full width of the rib, or stop at the linings? If it was original, I would have though that it would have been full width. What sort of rib thickness did he end up with?
The Bass bar does not look original. I suspect the graduations are not either, just my opinion. The Arching is medium I would say, not high. The wood grade however is superb. One authority called it 'Violin Grade'. I don't know the exact species either. I have it listed as just Italian Fir, 4-pc top. I think Arnold measured the Ribs and the outer burled maple is only about 1mm but from the neck block area looks like it varies in thickness a bit. The Spruce is about 2mm so it's 3mm total. I do not remember what the linings are like. I was too involved with the Top work to be planned out. The Rib construction had prevented long cracks which I heard are common with Guitar shaped single ribbed basses. Nothing is kerfed. This is no Guitar maker in here I can see. Another cornerless bass, or rather single ribbed bass I have does look like the maker or restorer was a guitar maker. Many of the old Italians were trained in making Violin types as well as fretted and possibly the Viols as well.

I will possibly be up at Arnold's within a week or so to bring another Bass up for some work. I can answer the lining question and others if Arnold doesn't beat me to the punch. There has been speculation by some that this Bass is Spanish rather than Italian. The only conflict there is, 'by who'? The grade of wood used and the workmanship doesn't ring any Spanish bells to anyone. Those speculations were made by other dealers that had a chance to buy the bass before me but didn't come up with the $$. The sound is as Italian to me as can be. If this is Spanish then where are the rest of them?
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 01-20-2009, 06:11 AM
Matthew Tucker's Avatar
Matthew Tucker Matthew Tucker is offline
Senior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-19-2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 427
Matthew Tucker is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Skype™ to Matthew Tucker
Default

it is interesting to me to speculate whether the doubling was added from the get go as a design feature. 2mm crossgrain doubling is a lot of work and careful joining of the edge seams. Perhaps the spruce was built onto the mould as a support first, and the thin veneer ribs bent onto that? That would make sense to me if the idea was to use a very thin veneer from the outset.

Otherwise if the doubling is not the full width of the rib, that would imply that the doubling was added after the thin ribs were bent and fixed into a mould, possibly as an afterthought.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2007 - Ken Smith Basses, LTD. (All Rights Reserved)