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Old 01-21-2009, 12:13 PM
Martin Sheridan Martin Sheridan is offline
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Default ear training

I'd like to get some advice on ear training, and I don't mean "stand up, sit or fetch" ( just thought I'd head off you "wags").

How have you trained yourself to hear pitch, chord changes etc.?
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Old 01-21-2009, 04:28 PM
Matthew Heintz Matthew Heintz is offline
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Default In a non-traditional direction...

I spent a great deal of time in formal ear training courses, plowing through books, using computer programs, singing with the piano, transcribing etc... and I've found that, for me, the most enjoyable (and, not coincidentally, most effective) method has been a proper study of jazz theory.

I'm far from competent in jazz, but I enjoy it, so the study of it is intentional, enjoyable misdirection. For instance, I picked up a copy of the The Jazz Sound by Dan Haerle, and in addition, to reading through his ****ysis, I sang through his examples to understand the ****ysis. It quickly becomes apparent that jazz isn't math and that it isn't enough to know that X scale is played over Y chord. One has to hear the surprise, the tension or release, etc... Once I had some elementary tools, I could then ****yze a few favorite tunes and pay along with recordings etc... I needed the theory first so that I had a vocabulary to describe what I was hearing.

Beyond finding more enjoyment in this process than traditional ear training, I also found that the freedom of jazz to move around the chord/scales really improved my ear. One can certainly do the same when singing Bach chorales, but the jazz setting encourages exploration.

Traditional solfege is certainly helpful, but can be tiresome for me. The only ear training that I didn't find particularly helpful (YMMV) has been computer programs that use midi-files. I found that the midi files lack the color and voicing of live recordings such that becoming better at recognizing XYZ chord/scale on the computer didn't necessarily improve my recognition of XYZ chord/scale in context.

My two cents...

Last edited by Matthew Heintz; 01-21-2009 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 01-30-2009, 08:06 PM
Martin Sheridan Martin Sheridan is offline
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Default traditonal

I am underwhelmed at the response to the question.

How about some traditional methods?
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Old 01-30-2009, 09:38 PM
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Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
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Cool Ok..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan View Post
I am underwhelmed at the response to the question.

How about some traditional methods?
Ok, I will bite..

I worked with records when I was young (16-19?) and transcribed or learned the exact Bass lines. Back then, the Bass was not all that out front like it is today. The Speakers were not as good either. Like listening to a Jack Jones Record and hearing the Bass line. Sinatra's mix was better. For the most part, pop records had the bass mixed down a bit. Jazz records were mixed on the volume thing but I had a basic home/consumer stereo, my brothers.

Playing gigs with Piano players also made me listen. It was listen and learn or, get a new profession. I remember Major Holley telling me 'my eyes aren't so good by my ears ARE!".. I sat in on his Sunday Brunch gig at Jacque's next to the Village gate. This is about 1969-1970. Got to play with Roland Hanna, Kenny Barron and others he had there working the Duo each week. I also sat in on Reggie Workmans' Bass/Guitar gig uptown on Monday nights and played with various guys there at Brandy's(?). The Bass chair changed when Reggie couldn't make it so one week I played on Reggie's bass, the next was Wilbur Ware's, then Sam Jones' and they all knew I was OK with Reggie so they let me play a tune or two each week.

On the Gig training or sitting in will get your ears working. I did so so many reading gigs that taking a wedding job once in a while was needed just to use my ears. My pitch and intonation got really good but my ear for hearing changes on tunes I didn't know or substutitions needed work.

Here's a shaker upper.. Bill Evans at the Blue Note c.1973/4 or so when it was uptown. I would go in each night and stand by the door (for free, they let me) and it was just after I got out each night of the B'way show I was doing. Al Cohen (of Al Cohen/Zoot Simms) with a Quartet with the Piano and drums from the 'Tonight Show' (Ross Tompkins and I forget, Shaunessey maybe) and Chuck Isreals on Bass opened up for 'Evans. Eddie Gomez was the bassist then who I knew thru the drummer Marty Morell with the trio.

Well, Eddie comes up to me on a break and asks if I would like to sit in on the last set (3am-4am) and I said YESSSS. So I kept my cool and tried calming my butterflies while waiting a few hours to play... Then Chuck Isreals comes up to me on his last break half way thru the night (the set b4 I would sit in) and says, "Kenny (they called me Kenny back then.. No longer allowed), would you mind doing the last set for me? I'm not feeling too well and wanna go home.".. Well, my first ever B'way sub was for Chuck so I could not refuse so I gladly accepted as I should. Well, I played his Italian bass on that set playing tunes I had no clue what they were and could barely hear the changes but survived.. and then put the Bass away in the clubs office as Chuck asked me to. Then.. I get called up by Eddie.. knees shaking after a set in the Twighlight zone with the Veterans who none of them even knew my name (I was announced with the Quartet.. "and an Unknown on Bass") and took the stage taking Eddie's bass from his hands. Talk about Pitch!!.. That was the 3rd bass I played that night counting the one I used earlier on my own gig.

Well, Bill polietly askes me "so what do you wanna play" ('kid!'.. didn't say 'Kid' but I could feel it.. or.. maybe I was just paranoid). Well.. I had this day planned out for years after all the 100s or hours playing along with the Records, mosty with Scotty playing.. So.. I said, 'Green Dolphin Street'. Well we ALL play it in 'C' in NY so I thought I was set... Then, he starts the intro.. My ears stand up.. literally.. not C.... oops.. Eb.. Yikes..

Well, there went all my licks and practiced solo riffs.. Now.. memory off, Ears ON. I play the tune, playing maybe 1/4 of the notes I would normally play.. mostly feel and did hear the tune to transpose but my solo.. a Fishing expedition.. And I was a GOOD Fisherman.. no joke.. lived in Florida for 7 years as a kid.. lol..

The Tune ends.. (Thank God..) and Bill looks up and says in a quiet voice 'felt good'. period. Eddie comes back, I unlock my frozen knees from the stool and like I just landed from a 16 hour flight, touched ground and walked off the stage.. I was in a Cloud but didn't know which direction the Earth was in.. .. Later that night or the next day I asked my friend marty Morell the drummer, "what did he mean whan he said 'felt good'?.. Marty replied.. "it felt good.. or he wouldn't of sadi it".. "Oh", I replied.. Boy was I insecure back then..

So, Ear traning? Like swimming.. Jump in.. Swim or sink.. Oh.. and practice a lot, jams are good with people at or above your level, above recommended.

I can't say for sure how one should really learn this formerly but this is how my life went. In the last few years I started doing Dou and Trio gigs again and once again, the ears needed stretching out. Nothing like having music to read for me but that's not always the case. You need to work it all, Eyes, Ears and oh.. the Hands.. Just plain practicing so you can find what your looking for once you know what it is you want.. Note wise I mean..
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Old 01-31-2009, 02:48 PM
Martin Sheridan Martin Sheridan is offline
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Default muchas tacos

Ken,
That was excellent and I appreciate it. I'm playing some again after hardly playing at all for many, too many years. I've really been improving my hearing, but I wanted to see what others would say. I've been working a little on intervals, but really need to play more with records etc, or I guess I should say CDs. It always seems like if I get the first two chords or really the second one from the beginning the rest come at least most of the time. Same with getting to the first chord of the bridge.
I always feel like a little kid learning his ABCs. Getting most of them but stumbling on some too. There's no worse feeling than going to a chord you thought you heard and having it be a clunker.
Good advice. And great stories tool.
Maybe we'll get some more.
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Old 02-28-2009, 04:50 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Ken (I resisted adding '-ny', but it was tough) that was a very interesting post.

Martin here's something I'm doing at the moment that really helps my ears.
When I'm somewhere, away from my bass, I imaging playing my bass. I try to feel, but not to think because reasoning seems to really kill this activity. I pretend to play the notes and listen. I've also applied this exercise to sightreading. I 'play' a piece of music like this and I can easily hear all the intervals between the notes as I finger them. No doubt it works because of years of running my fingers over the bass. I'm sure it will work for anyone. I've found it builds a real link between the notes and intervals, and where they are on the bass - like a singer gets from his voice, I guess. When I first did it, I was surprised that I could hear all the notes so clearly. I was also surprised that I could hear, say, open G - almost like someone with perfect pitch! Really it's just pitch memory, I guess.
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Old 02-28-2009, 06:14 PM
Joel Larsson Joel Larsson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Prowse View Post
I was also surprised that I could hear, say, open G - almost like someone with perfect pitch! Really it's just pitch memory, I guess.
Richie (resistance is futile), that goes for me too. I have nothing coming even close to perfect pitch, but I have some strange skill. When I, after taking a longer break, play an open G, I can usually tell whether it is in picth or not. It's like I know how it should sound. Must be the vibrations, or something. I've heard that there have been deaf double bass players... haven't actually heard or seen any, though.

Too bad I seem to have the G in 440 in my head... I mostly tune in 442 these days, so I can't really leave the tuner at home. (Plus, I hate tuning on harmonics. And this perfect open string pitch becomes more imperfect for each string below the G, so I can't rely on it.)

But if I was to prove to you in person that I could tune a G without references, I'd probably fail completely.
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Old 02-28-2009, 06:18 PM
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Anselm Hauke Anselm Hauke is offline
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Originally Posted by Joel Larsson View Post
I've heard that there have been deaf double bass players... haven't actually heard or seen any, though.
well...i think i know some...
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Old 03-01-2009, 01:38 AM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Originally Posted by Anselm Hauke View Post
well...i think i know some...
Who are they, Anselmmy?
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Old 03-01-2009, 06:16 AM
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Anselm Hauke Anselm Hauke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Prowse View Post
Who are they, Anselmmy?
well, prowsey, in this forum, where i use my real name. i won´t tell names...
but i can tell you, i know deaf musicians that play any kind of instrument, not only bassplayers
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Old 03-01-2009, 11:15 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anselm Hauke View Post
well, prowsey, in this forum, where i use my real name. i won´t tell names...
but i can tell you, i know deaf musicians that play any kind of instrument, not only bassplayers
Okay Haukey, I hear you.
There's something about thinking that gets in the way of hearing. Maybe we all just need to be aware.
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Old 03-27-2009, 05:06 PM
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Paul Warburton Paul Warburton is offline
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Default Ears.

I'm ALL about ears. I learned to play the bass with them. ( no, I don't have any calluses on them) To this day, I couldn't survive musically without a pair of pretty well honed ones. Being self-taught, and being fairly under educated in any real literal musical sense, I would have been dead in the water many years ago without them.

And PLEASE, let's don't get into that silly Van Gogh stuff. Been there, done that.
And PLEASE, Kenny Boy...let's don't get into any more of that swapping of our experiences with Bill, Eddie, Chuck, Marty and ALL the boys again. We went there many times before.
Maybe we should each make copies of that ****, and post them as attachments. ( as you would say...."LOL" ).

And yes, If you keep your nose in the REAL BOOK it will help cripple your ears.

Last edited by Paul Warburton; 03-27-2009 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 03-27-2009, 06:47 PM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Warburton View Post
I'm ALL about ears. I learned to play the bass with them. ( no, I don't have any calluses on them) To this day, I couldn't survive musically without a pair of pretty well honed ones. Being self-taught, and being fairly under educated in any real literal musical sense, I would have been dead in the water many years ago without them.
I too grew up musically during an era where reading charts on stage was frowned upon. The bandleader either gave you the key by the amount of fingers he pointed down (flats) or up (sharps), and if you knew the tune, great. If you didn't, you watched the piano player's left hand and listened for the harmonic movement and cadences. And if you did not have the changes down by the second or third time around, you didn't work with those guys again. Some bandleaders didn't bother telling their sidemen anything, they just started playing. With the key of the last tune in your head, you figured out the new key and jumped in. We didn't have a thing called a Real Book. Paul, I bet you know the changes to thousands of songs, even if you (like me) can't remember their names...
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Old 03-27-2009, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
I too grew up musically during an era where reading charts on stage was frowned upon. The bandleader either gave you the key by the amount of fingers he pointed down (flats) or up (sharps), and if you knew the tune, great. If you didn't, you watched the piano player's left hand and listened for the harmonic movement and cadences. And if you did not have the changes down by the second or third time around, you didn't work with those guys again. Some bandleaders didn't bother telling their sidemen anything, they just started playing. With the key of the last tune in your head, you figured out the new key and jumped in. We didn't have a thing called a Real Book. Paul, I bet you know the changes to thousands of songs, even if you (like me) can't remember their names...
Yeah Arnold...the old watch the piano players left-hand's-pinkie trick.
I Do probably know thousands of songs....goes with being an old ****. But, I also know most of the lyrics that go with them and many of the verses. Knowing the lyrics helps me remember their god damn names.
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Old 03-27-2009, 09:11 PM
Martin Sheridan Martin Sheridan is offline
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Default crippled ears

Paul,
Why do you say the Real Book will cripple your ears?

I too have done a lot of playing solely be ear and by watching the piano players left hand. Maybe its because I'm getting back into playing a lot after not playing much for the last decade or so, but that's why I'm looking for advice from you guys.

Thanks for the input.
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Old 03-27-2009, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan View Post
Paul,
Why do you say the Real Book will cripple your ears?
I too have done a lot of playing solely be ear and by watching the piano players left hand. Maybe its because I'm getting back into playing a lot after not playing much for the last decade or so, but that's why I'm looking for advice from you guys.
Thanks for the input.
Don't get me wrong Martin. Fake books are fine....but only as a visual, skeletal guide to commit the material to your memory. Problem is, many players become addicted to them and even become insecure without a chart in front of them.
Many of these books have wrong chord changes, wrong melody notes....I got into a little tiff with a kid about the tune "Blue Trane" He insisted that the true title was "Blue Train" because that was the way the title was listed in his Real Book.
Sure, use them, learn the tunes and THEN open up your ears. If you are looking at a piece of music all night long you are not hearing all the stuff that's going on around you in the music. As I told the kid..."Use 'em or lose 'em."
It, for me, is still better to learn the tunes by ear. With Youtube today, there's just no excuse to NOT do that. Hell, just come up with the title, do a UT search and there it is by, usually, the definitive artist with the definitive changes or, at least, correct changes (usually). If you don't care for the changes, this will motivate you to learn some reharms.
And, as Arnold said, we learned this stuff the hard way...by watching and listening to others around us...but it did exercise our big ears, and made them even bigger.
And please don't be askin' if that applies to any more personal male body parts. If I answer, you'll just call me a braggart.

Last edited by Paul Warburton; 03-27-2009 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 03-31-2009, 01:19 PM
Martin Sheridan Martin Sheridan is offline
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Default charts and chords

Paul and others:
Would you like to expand a little on charts and chords?
Recently I ran off three versions of Hoagy Carmichael's GEORGIA.
That a song I've played many times and it seems like everyone does the bridge a little differently. One was just plain wrong. I think the guy who wrote it out had had one too many or had been at it too long. The chords started out right but were asigned the wrong number of beats. The second and third were nearly identical, but their bridges were different. Upon closer look I realized that both bridges were very similar and some of the chords were just different voicings. I don't have them before me know, but I think one of them had a Dm7b5 going to a G-7 and other had an Abdim before the G.
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Old 03-31-2009, 04:50 PM
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Thumbs up

Any particular key?
Bottom line.....back to your ears AND your taste. Do they sound good to you? Do they move in a graceful and flowing way to you? To they help or hinder the melody to you? Do they work for you in your improvisations?
Sorry to answer your questions with more questions. If you want to take more time and sketch out a very basic view of the bridge changes that you're talking about, I'll be more than happy to respond with the one's that I've settled on after about 50 years of playing the tune.
The lyrics are cool too. Is "Georgia" a lady or a city down South? I prefer the lady.
Might be easier to leave out the b5's and #9's. I can fancy some of that up if you'd like. Beats are just ////'s.
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Old 03-07-2010, 12:24 PM
Charles A Thomas Charles A Thomas is offline
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Many old tunes had standard changes, as these tunes became jazz tunes you see more use of the tri-tone. This is basiclly changing a cycle of fifths movement of the bass note into a chromatic movement, it's like you said, after ****yzing the chords they were the same just different voicings
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Old 04-09-2010, 02:16 AM
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i'm working out of a book called 'the ears have walls' which has a LOT to do with recognition, sight singing, memorizing and the like. its actually a required text at humber college (toronto) for their jazz program!
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