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Old 08-05-2007, 12:02 PM
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Default Acoustic Playing Sweet Spots near the Wall

This is more about rooms and how they interact with basses. So I'm hoping others will post about situations they have played in that have affected the sound and volume of their bass when played sans amp.

Here's some things I've found and been surprised by. If I get really close (2-3 ft.) to the wall (in almost any room), my bass is much louder at the bottom end. If I increase that to 5 ft., the A string seems to benefit more than the other strings and becomes very dominant. If I move a little farther out, the E and BB strings become the major beneficiaries of the wall proximity effect. When I get out in the room a good ways (7-8 ft.), it evens out with the whole bass just being louder. I'm thinking I'll call this the "wall proximity effect" because I have observed it with just about any wall in any of the venues I play in from plaster, glass, wood or brick. Anyone else observe anything like this when playing without an amp?
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Old 08-05-2007, 12:33 PM
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Cool off the wall..

For the sake of hearing the notes and intonation I have use the amp for most of my Gigs all my life with the exception of the Orchestra stuff and some pit jobs. When my Gilkes came out of restoration I had a Gig subbing with a trio in a Holiday Inn. I thought I might be able to try it with out the amp but I brought the amp anyway. I used an old AKG160E studio mic I bought back in the 70s for home recording and I wrapped foam around it and slid it between the bridge feet. I tried 2 tunes first without the amp until the pianist/leader said, maybe we need a little amp on it as he couldn't hear the pitch as well as he could feel the Bass. The drums across the other side of the Piano had the same problem. It felt good but the Bass is just too deep sounding. I was sitting about 2-3feet off the wall and the Bass was 4-5 feet from the wall. The room was mostly carpeted with maybe a 10-12ft ceiling and not a big room holding maybe 20-25 tables with a small dance floor on the side.

I think the individual sound of the Bass, how it's set-up, the player and the room makes a difference. Currently my Bollbach is out on trial/loan and I got a call about its non-amped sound. The Bassist was playing a gig in a small lounge without the drums for the first hour of the gig. He was not using an amp and could be heard just fine. When they moved to the bigger room with the drums set-up, he didn't have time to set-up the amp before the band started to play. He started playing without the amp and even with the drums he was heard just fine.

Now, what's fine for you may not be what's fine for me. Everything matters including the ears. I like to hear my pitch as best as possible. Even in the orchestra, I have pinched my own beard under the string while leaning close to hear my intonation.. Ouch.. in-tune but I hurt myself..

On one Duo Gig I did at the Philly Art Museum Sunday Brunch with Vibes & Bass recently I was able to hear myself just fine. I know for sure it was the room because my Bass although is fairly loud, is not usually that loud in other places... go figure..
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Old 08-05-2007, 04:16 PM
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Gareth Hughes Gareth Hughes is offline
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Alas my Boosey and Hawkes 15yearold laminate has very little volume so playing without an amp is nigh impossible. A gig a few weeks back, with only an acoustic guitar and vocal going thru a small amp, was enough to require an amp for myself. Might have sounded fine to the punters at the reception I was playing but I like to hear the attack of the note as well as the body.

I usually find that the high end of other instruments -guitar, cymbals, vocals- usually takes the edge of what I'm hearing in my own sound. Then it's time for speakers close to ear level.
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Old 08-06-2007, 10:55 AM
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I've only had one gig so far where I could get away with no amp, and as soon as that place turned on the AC and these fans that sound like jet engines, we had to amp everything in that room. Before that we had just the electric guitar amped (necessary of course). I think my bass is louder than most because I've played next to a loud grand piano with several dreadnought style guitars, a mandolin, as well as a hand played dumbek, and could still be easily heard. In another situation, we were trying to record with two acoustic guitars using a large diaphram condenser mic. There was no where in the room where the mic could be placed where the bass was not practically burying those guitars. So I took mercy on them and just played a lot softer. Truly though, I'm mostly addressing something that is not about ensemble playing per se.

The "wall proximity effect" is something I've noticed mostly when playing alone at home and in a few other places where I was playing acoustically and the space was tight enough that I was right at the wall or just a few feet away.

I can completely identify with the beard pinching incident, too. I sometimes put my ear on the neck, the scroll, to hear my pitch. It's an awful thing to not be able to hear yourself. Something that is a very cool battery free device is that Dragonfly stethoscope amp. I had one of those on the back of my DB and it is nearly deafening. If there is a situation where you need a monitor but can't use an amp, that thing would be the ticket. But I don't want to change the topic, so back to the "off the wall" experiences.....
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Old 08-06-2007, 03:49 PM
Mark Mazurek Mark Mazurek is offline
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I'm new to DB, but own/operate a home studio in my spare time.

What you're experiencing are early room reflections, which affect lower registers far more than higher ones. 90% corners multiply what's happening.

Certain frequencies cancel and others are reinforced. It is a nightmare to deal with bottom end in a smaller room in the studio world. That's why most small rooms are 'dead' rooms, and most big rooms are 'live' rooms.

Sometimes it screws things up, sometimes it enhances things. You use it to your advantage when you can.

Do your same experiment in a corner for DOUBLE the fun. Moving in and out will increase/decrease certain frequencies. Similar to a severe EQ notch where it bumps up the frequencies just outside the cut frequency.

Fun stuff.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Mazurek View Post
I'm new to DB, but own/operate a home studio in my spare time.

What you're experiencing are early room reflections, which affect lower registers far more than higher ones. 90% corners multiply what's happening.

Certain frequencies cancel and others are reinforced. It is a nightmare to deal with bottom end in a smaller room in the studio world. That's why most small rooms are 'dead' rooms, and most big rooms are 'live' rooms.

Sometimes it screws things up, sometimes it enhances things. You use it to your advantage when you can.

Do your same experiment in a corner for DOUBLE the fun. Moving in and out will increase/decrease certain frequencies. Similar to a severe EQ notch where it bumps up the frequencies just outside the cut frequency.

Fun stuff.
I tried it in a corner of my dining room today. And it is exactly like you say. Just like you boosted a selective frequency band depending on how far out of the corner I am up to about 7 ft., which is the middle of the room. And the D& G strings are much less affected, as you suggest. My house doesn't have many rooms, but they are in the 15' x 15' range and are definitely "live" with old pine floors on joists and 11 ft ceilings and plaster walls. I bet it would sound awesome recorded out in the middle of the room.

Thanks for explaining that because I think it may be why when one is faced with a crowded shallow stage, the EQ / feedback issues become tricky. But now that I know what's happening the effect could also be useful in all acoustic settings. When we were doing the recording with the two guitars and the bass was loud, that room was carpeted, had a normal ceiling height and had a good deal of reflection cutting foam forms in the corners. I was not set up real close to a wall then, but was about 5-7 ft. from the wall.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Mazurek View Post
I'm new to DB, but own/operate a home studio in my spare time.

What you're experiencing are early room reflections, which affect lower registers far more than higher ones. 90% corners multiply what's happening.

Certain frequencies cancel and others are reinforced. It is a nightmare to deal with bottom end in a smaller room in the studio world. That's why most small rooms are 'dead' rooms, and most big rooms are 'live' rooms.

Sometimes it screws things up, sometimes it enhances things. You use it to your advantage when you can.

Do your same experiment in a corner for DOUBLE the fun. Moving in and out will increase/decrease certain frequencies. Similar to a severe EQ notch where it bumps up the frequencies just outside the cut frequency.

Fun stuff.
I tried it in a corner of my dining room today. And it is exactly like you say. Just like you boosted a selective frequency band depending on how far out of the corner I am up to about 7 ft., which is the middle of the room. And the D& G strings are much less affected, as you suggest. My house doesn't have many rooms, but they are in the 15' x 15' range and are definitely "live" with old pine floors on joists and 11 ft ceilings and plaster walls. I bet it would sound awesome recorded out in the middle of the room.

Thanks for explaining that because I think it may be why when one is faced with a crowded shallow stage, the EQ / feedback issues become tricky. But now that I know what's happening the effect could also be useful in all acoustic settings. When we were doing the recording with the two guitars and the bass was loud, that room was carpeted, had a normal ceiling height and had a good deal of reflection cutting foam forms in the corners. I was not set up real close to a wall then, but was about 5-7 ft. from the wall.

I've tried to delete this echoing post that I some how inadvertently submitted twice, can you help me out, Mike? Just leave the one post above that this one duplicates.. cates .... cates ... cates.......

Last edited by David Powell; 08-07-2007 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 08-07-2007, 09:30 AM
Mark Mazurek Mark Mazurek is offline
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Yes, in a nice 'lively' room, it's very easy to place things and hear the differences.

Most studio 'problem rooms' have heavily treated walls and possibly carpet.
This kinda 'masks' the obvious high end spacial 'cues' you hear and drives people NUTS on why their low frequencies seem 'all over the place'.

To complicate the problem more, you find a great spot in a room (where you love your bass sound), but it doesn't sound like that on the recording, and wonder why. It's because you put a mic in front of your bass, not out in the room (or where your ears are).

When 'working' a room (or wall combo) like this, you need to look at the room as part of the instrument. Sound sources never sound good in anechoic chambers (no reflections). Play the room as part of the 'rig'.

This is the foundation of all the frustration with amplification when playing 'out'. Every room has different size, reflection, absorbtion, shape, etc...
It's why 'swiss army knife' amps include phase switches, high pass filters, notch filters, fancy eq, etc...

Sellers of live equipment should have generous return policies, because you rarely can tell an amps true potential/pitfalls in the one room you try it in.
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Old 08-07-2007, 10:13 AM
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I really appreciate your insights into all of this, Mark. I have recorded the DB a few times and gotten really nice results with Garage Band, my Macbook and a Tascam USB 122 interface and a couple of cheap condenser mics. In most of the situations there were other acoustic instruments recorded ensemble on just two stereo channels, no isolation or separate tracks. We put the mics just kind of out there in the room to get general mixes of all the instruments and really didn't think to much about what we were doing in any technical way. And I guess we got lucky considering the possible pitfalls you are describing. We did do some multi-track stuff too, but didn't move the mics from where we had already set them. I think we just had all the levels looking good and just left it alone without really thinking about putting it right up close to the bass. Dumb luck completely.

I'm thinking that whenever I go to an acoustic jam session now, I'm going to claim a corner and then work my way out until it sounds loud and balanced. Imagine, all this time I thought I had a great sounding bass and instead I just have a great sounding house.
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