Sonore strings

[Calvin Marks]

Originally Posted by Brian Roessler

The only two players I know of using his strings off the top of my head are Christian Weber in Switzerland and François Rabbath in France, although clearly there are others.

Genssler told me that Rabbath uses his Red Label solo strings tuned down to orchestra pitch. On several interviews Rabbath said he'd never do this as it's "the easy way out".

[Nathan Parker]

Just save us some trouble and tell us they suck. I'm very happy with my sound as it is right now, but there's always something to tweak and play with. I love the concept of the Velvet strings (this guy helped found that company, right) but they just don't have the sound that I get from good old Chorda's.

And now some questions. How "gut-like" are they in your mind? And how loud are they? Those are the two qualities I am most interested in. Oh yeah, one more: Are they all the same tension, like Velvets?

I'm quite sure François has never said that.

I'm also quite sure that he uses the set of strings made by Genssler called the RABBATH set.

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

Genssler told me that Rabbath uses his Red Label solo strings tuned down to orchestra pitch. On several interviews Rabbath said he'd never do this as it's "the easy way out".

A couple answers....

I couldn't speak to how gut like they are never having had other gut strings on my bass. Give that they are made with a gut core, I have to assume they are pretty gut like Of course, all four are wound which makes them a bit different than the normal set of guts with 2 wound and 2 plain gut strings.

As for volume, my bass is definitely louder with these strings than it has been with any other set of strings I've had on it, which are: Corelli 370M, Bel Canto, and Spirocore Weich.

Finally, yes, they are all the same tension. In the case of the TWINE set the tension is 23kp.

Originally Posted by Nathan Parker

Just save us some trouble and tell us they suck. I'm very happy with my sound as it is right now, but there's always something to tweak and play with. I love the concept of the Velvet strings (this guy helped found that company, right) but they just don't have the sound that I get from good old Chorda's.

And now some questions. How "gut-like" are they in your mind? And how loud are they? Those are the two qualities I am most interested in. Oh yeah, one more: Are they all the same tension, like Velvets?

[Nathan Parker]

Thanks for the quick answers. I appreciate. My string lust has been quelled.

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

So, what kind of strings does this man make? Are they for orchestra? I don't know of anyone in the U.S using these strings asides from a few soloists. I'm sure they're popular in Germany.

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

Genssler told me that Rabbath uses his Red Label solo strings tuned down to orchestra pitch.

Calvin, it seems weird that you would ask me what kind of strings he makes if you've spoken to him personally about them.

It would be more becoming for you to ask genuine questions, talk about what you know, and refrain from misguided personal attacks.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Brian Roessler

Calvin, it seems weird that you would ask me what kind of strings he makes if you've spoken to him personally about them.

It would be more becoming for you to ask genuine questions, talk about what you know, and refrain from misguided personal attacks.

Settle down now and I will talk about my feelings about Gut, Gut core and Gut-like string.. This is from my most recent personal experiences..

In the last few years I have tried 3 types of Gut string sets, a few types of Gut-like synthetic sets and some Gut core sets complete or mixed (eg. Oliv/Eudoxa)..

At first, every set was nice when new with two exceptions, maybe three. After awhile I would notice their shortcomings. This could be in durability, bow response or even Pizz response under the ear. What was usually good was the thicker feel under the fingers.

I will say here and now that I have never seen, played, tried or heard these Sonore Strings and can only go by the descriptions I have read.

The fix for these shortcomings I have experienced was always returning to some type or full metal string like Flexocor 92s (Reg, stark or mixed) or most recently the new Belcantos with the bigger E/C string.

When playing in an Orchestra you need to dig in and grab the note when needed and any type of delay puts you behind in the music and the beat. Playing Orchestra Bass is often like playing in a rhythm section just like in Jazz or Pop music or even on Electric bass. YOU are the beat that holds it all together. Having strings that are slow to respond when digging in can be the death of your playing!

Now, finding which string responds best on your bass (sometimes on a given day) is another challenge altogether. Not being able to afford the bass of your dreams is another reality in life. Trying to make up for that with string switching all day and night just makes the insanity grow in my opinion. Using a bigger plate for your food is no more filling unless you actually have MORE food! Therefore, there is no magic all around string to make your bass sound like the d'Salo or Montagnana you wish you owned.

I spoke to one player at this years ISB who uses ONLY gut strings BUT, does NOT play in a regular Orchestra but rather a Chamber orchestra at most. Thus being the case, one must realize what certain strings were used for in the past or what worked better for whatever once they were developed.

The great majority of Orchestra players in the world as well as Jazz players USE Steel Strings of one kind or another. If your Gut to Gut-like strings aren't cutting it, then go with the herd. There is safety in numbers..

If it's the Gut 'sound' you are searching for, go with it if you must but don't expect them to be able to do what the modern Steels can do. If such was the case and Guts could out perform Steels, then Steels would be off the market by now.

[Calvin Marks]

Originally Posted by Brian Roessler

Calvin, it seems weird that you would ask me what kind of strings he makes if you've spoken to him personally about them.

It would be more becoming for you to ask genuine questions, talk about what you know, and refrain from misguided personal attacks.

? "Misguided personal attacks" Take it easy, nothing in my post was a personal attack to you or anyone, so take it easy.

I remember very little about these strings. I spoke with the maker about 3 years ago, perhaps then he was still with VELVET I do not know. Here's the e-mail he sent me several years ago. On an interview between Jason Heath and Francois Rabbath he gave his opinion on solo strings which I stated before.


"Dear Calvin,

Joel uses the RED LABEL, but in Fifth Tuning
My strings have an brillant clear sound but by no means the sound of any steel string.
Francois Rabbath uses the solo-version but in normal tuning for his solo playing and he is completly happy with them.
But I think for both application, solo and orchestra the original RED LABEL basso version is the best choice.
Best regards
Gerold"

[Nathan Parker]

I appreciate your post, Ken. For me, the full gut string experience is the way to go. It gets me the sound, feel and volume I want, and is much easier on my hands than full metal strings. It should be noted that I do no orchestral playing at this time, so perhaps I am taking this a bit to far of topic and for that I apologize. If I seriously get into orchestral work, I will be looking for another option for sure.

That being said, I am a little bit excited about these strings, and I look forward to hearing more about them as they "age" on your bass, Brian.

[Calvin Marks]

Naturally I agree with what Ken just stated. You can spend your life trying to get "that sound", but usually it has much more to do with your instrument than if you're using Permanents or Flexocores! Believe me, I've spent about a year investing in strings only to find that it's a means to an end.

I've played Olivs and Eudoxa's and both blended fine in an orchestra section because they sound like a steel-string but with a very warm, round sound. I've also played plain gut strings from Aquila Italia, Gamut and Dlogolecki, and true gut strings will never blend in a modern ensemble.

I do not know how these strings by Genssler sound or fit in a modern orchestral bass section. I think you have a lot of leeway when you're a jazz musician or perhaps the only bassist in a chamber ensemble, because you can afford afford to "make your own sound".

There's a reason why players come back to strings that sound like Flexocore (or more recently Belcanto), it's because they have that warm, powerful sound that blends well and isn't too aggressive.

That being said, if I were a jazz musician I would not hesitate to use real gut strings. There's a special feeling that comes from playing these strings.

I simply wanted to share my experience with Genssler's Sonores TWINE strings. I find the tone of your comments and questions distasteful. As far as I know Rabbath has never expressed that opinion about tuning solo strings down, and he currently uses the Sonores RABBATH model strings. I have spent lots of personal time over several years studying with François and researching his life and work. I've never heard him say that about tuning solo strings down. On the other hand, his lack of enthusiasm for solo tuning in general is well known. You may be thinking of that.

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

? "Misguided personal attacks" ? What are you talking about???

I remember very little about these strings. I spoke with the maker about 3 years ago, perhaps then he was still with VELVET I do not know. Here's the e-mail he sent me several years ago. On an interview between Jason Heath and Francois Rabbath he gave his opinion on solo strings which I stated before.


"Dear Calvin,

Joel uses the RED LABEL, but in Fifth Tuning
My strings have an brillant clear sound but by no means the sound of any steel string.
Francois Rabbath uses the solo-version but in normal tuning for his solo playing and he is completly happy with them.
But I think for both application, solo and orchestra the original RED LABEL basso version is the best choice.
Best regards
Gerold"

[Calvin Marks]

Yes, and I think your next step would be to either delete your highly aggressive post towards me or issue an apology. I have nothing against Rabbath, he is a nice man and I've studied with him BRIEFLY, but in my personal taste I do not share his opinion towards what is the ideal sound for the double bass.

To each their own.

[Calvin Marks]

Glad that quieted you down. Now, shall we discuss these strings like civil minded adults?

[Pete George]

I've been running the Sonores "Drago Basso" (standard -- not solo -- orchestra strings) on my Arvi (four-string with a low C) for a couple of months, but I've only really been able to practice a lot on them for the past three weeks or so.

To preface, I'm a confessed string sl.ut -- I've tried almost all of the popular metal strings, though this is my first foray into guts for many, many years. (My first high school bass had strings made out of dinosaur gut, which was very cheap back then.) My "standard" setup on the Arvi is Permanents on C/E and A, and Flexocor '92s on D and G. I've tried a lot of other things, including most recently Evahs (beautifully big, round sound, but uncentered pitch on the lower strings), Bel Cantos (great to bow, but a sound that's not big enough or rich enough for me), and Compass 180s (C string breaks way too easily, strings otherwise interesting -- but weird).

As to the Sonores Drago Bassos, what can I say? I'm in love.

As noted earlier in this thread, the Sonores strings are shockingly thin to those of us who grew up on gut strings the thickness of your pinky. My Dragos are no thicker than standard Evahs, and probably thinner. And while they are expensive, I take some comfort from the 2-year guaranty. When they first arrived, I showed the strings to a bass luthier in the area who specializes in period instruments with gut strings, and he said the quality of the strings is superb.

From a playing standpoint, the strings speak very easily; the tone is rich, deep, clear, and complex; the volume is tremendous, especially on the two lowest strings; and they have a personality unlike any other string I've played -- "guttiness," I guess. I've been playing a lot of baroque sonatas on these -- and it's the most addictive experience I've ever had on the bass. Once I start, I can't stop. When I have to stop, I start playing again as soon as I can.

One specific point -- the vibrato that can be generated on these strings is amazing -- unlike anything possible on any other string I've tried.

To Ken's points, I can only say that there is no responsiveness difference between these strings and all of the metal strings I have tried -- except that the Dragos are MORE responsive than almost any metal string I've tried, with the possible exception of the Bel Cantos. In addition, the Drago strings hold pitch reliably all the way up the fingerboard. (Though if I made my living in thumb position, I'd try the solo version that Gerold offers.) The character of the tone IS different from metal orchestral strings, especially on the G string, but not so wildly different that I would contemplate a major problem fitting in with a section that is already using a variety of different strings. (I wouldn't audition on these because of that difference, but once I had orchestral "tenure" I don't think I'd be thrown out for using them.)

My teacher (the principal bassist with an ICSOM orchestra) played these for the first time yesterday and was amazed that any gut string could perform like mine. He comes from a jazz background and also thought the strings would be superb for jazz use (though Genssler makes other strings specifically tailored for jazz).

Bottom line: there isn't any string that's perfect for anyone, and these aren't either. I love playing them, though, and would recommend them subject to the observations above.

[Calvin Marks]

Originally Posted by Pete George

I've been running the Sonores "Drago Basso" (standard -- not solo -- orchestra strings) on my Arvi (four-string with a low C) for a couple of months, but I've only really been able to practice a lot on them for the past three weeks or so.

To preface, I'm a confessed string sl.ut -- I've tried almost all of the popular metal strings, though this is my first foray into guts for many, many years. (My first high school bass had strings made out of dinosaur gut, which was very cheap back then.) My "standard" setup on the Arvi is Permanents on C/E and A, and Flexocor '92s on D and G. I've tried a lot of other things, including most recently Evahs (beautifully big, round sound, but uncentered pitch on the lower strings), Bel Cantos (great to bow, but a sound that's not big enough or rich enough for me), and Compass 180s (C string breaks way too easily, strings otherwise interesting -- but weird).

As to the Sonores Drago Bassos, what can I say? I'm in love.

As noted earlier in this thread, the Sonores strings are shockingly thin to those of us who grew up on gut strings the thickness of your pinky. My Dragos are no thicker than standard Evahs, and probably thinner. And while they are expensive, I take some comfort from the 2-year guaranty. When they first arrived, I showed the strings to a bass luthier in the area who specializes in period instruments with gut strings, and he said the quality of the strings is superb.

From a playing standpoint, the strings speak very easily; the tone is rich, deep, clear, and complex; the volume is tremendous, especially on the two lowest strings; and they have a personality unlike any other string I've played -- "guttiness," I guess. I've been playing a lot of baroque sonatas on these -- and it's the most addictive experience I've ever had on the bass. Once I start, I can't stop. When I have to stop, I start playing again as soon as I can.

One specific point -- the vibrato that can be generated on these strings is amazing -- unlike anything possible on any other string I've tried.

To Ken's points, I can only say that there is no responsiveness difference between these strings and all of the metal strings I have tried -- except that the Dragos are MORE responsive than almost any metal string I've tried, with the possible exception of the Bel Cantos. In addition, the Drago strings hold pitch reliably all the way up the fingerboard. (Though if I made my living in thumb position, I'd try the solo version that Gerold offers.) The character of the tone IS different from metal orchestral strings, especially on the G string, but not so wildly different that I would contemplate a major problem fitting in with a section that is already using a variety of different strings. (I wouldn't audition on these because of that difference, but once I had orchestral "tenure" I don't think I'd be thrown out for using them.)

My teacher (the principal bassist with an ICSOM orchestra) played these for the first time yesterday and was amazed that any gut string could perform like mine. He comes from a jazz background and also thought the strings would be superb for jazz use (though Genssler makes other strings specifically tailored for jazz).

Bottom line: there isn't any string that's perfect for anyone, and these aren't either. I love playing them, though, and would recommend them subject to the observations above.

Pete, so these strings are gut-core wound in steel or metal? Did the bridge height need raising to get these to speak properly?

[Pete George]

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

Pete, so these strings are gut-core wound in steel or metal? Did the bridge height need raising to get these to speak properly?

Right -- the winding material is a trade secret, but it's some kind of metal (Krell?), impeccably flat-wound.

I had my old Flexocor '92/Permanent rig set at about 5mm for the G, a bit higher on the C/E and A, and I didn't have to adjust height at all when I switched. These strings play great at metal-string heights.

[Pete George]

I liked these so much on my 4-string that I switched over on my five string as well. The new set has only been on a few days, but the set sounds great so far - even the low B. As with the four, these strings make me want to play and play and not put the bass down. They're very inviting. "User-friendly" doesn't start to describe the sensation.