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Old 12-05-2008, 07:02 PM
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Cool Playing from the 'Gut'

I am starting this Thread about Gut Strings but have posted it in both the general Strings and Basses sections because the discussions might and can go either way.

For Strings, we have discussed Guts for both Classical Bowing and for Jazz Pizz as seen in the Links shown. The Pizz Thread was started by Carlos Henriquez and the Bowing Thread was started by yours truly!

Well, as with many of the Basses I have owned past and present I usually prefer the Bass be able to do both with the same set-up. Having good Basses and more then one combined allows me to do this but things don't always work out. Just as I get the Bass just how I like it and ready for a Concert I find out I need a C-Extension for the Gig and have to switch Basses. Last week I was all ready to play my Pollmann and at the rehearsal I see that one of the pieces could only be played comfortably on a 5-String or, Transposed up by jumping all over the Bass. The Piece runs from the Low C thru the 3rd/4th or so positions on the G string so it would really sound best playing all the moving lines as written. Moving on, without a good C-Extension Gut string available I will still have to keep at least 2 Basses 'fully loaded' if one of them are to be strung with Guts.

I have a new set of Guts coming in soon and I was torn between the idea of taking a Bass that still needs Bridge and Nut/Fingerboard work/replacement in the near future OR take a bass that is already done-up and just convert it for Gut by widening the string slots at both the Bridge and the Nut.

Being partially in the business of selling some of the Basses I own (most of them actually) I also have to consider the fact that a Bass probably wont sell too easily these days if strung up with Guts. Also, if the Gut strung Bass is chosen for sale and the Nut and Bridge are newish, I will probably at the least have to re-work them both for Steels if not replace them depending. That in itself is another topic but can be discussed. I will only go further on it if asked.

So, the Basses I had considered that are actually in my rack currently include the Batchelder, the Sirleto, the Pollmann Busseto and the new Lott model English Bass I just bought.

If I'm thinking out loud here too much, just say so. Not that it will do you any good .. but hey, speak up if you got it in ya..

Here were my thoughts on the choice I had to make. Also, this might help any one of you down the road or possibly strike an old 'nerve' if you've been thru this already.

1) The Batchelder was just fully set-up not long ago. Any changes to it might adversely affect a potential sale. Players usually love it the way I have it set-up which has been with any variety of strings its had from Jazz to Orchestra types. I did have one buyer try it with Guts but he went for a much larger Bass in the end.

2) The Sirleto is one that still has its original Bridge but it was cut down so low in the past I had to shim the feet just to use it so no major loss there if I re-cut it. The Fingerboard however is fine and healthy so altering the Nut could be a loss if converting back was needed for a sale.

3) The Pollmann has a complete new Set-up from Arnold which not only includes the Fingerboard, Nut, Bridge Tailpiece and Tailwire but also a new and longer Neck grafted in which makes it a perfect 41.5" string length, up an inch from the stock set-up from Pollmann. Altering this Bass would be as explained earlier, a costly set-up reversal if sold for steel string playing.

4) The Lott model English Bass I just got in plays well as-is but for optimum use, it needs a Fingerboard, Nut and Bridge. This is a Bass I would personally use for Orchestra if all my oldies were suddenly sold. I would just need a C-Extension added and I would have a new personal Bass. The reality is that I currently have 3 GREAT Orchestra Basses and all have C-Extensions. I only need one of them to get by so it would be a fantastic week if all of them sold suddenly.

At first I was thinking of using this Lott model as my new 'Gut Bass' because cutting up the Slots will be of no major loss being that it could use a new and better set-up anyway. Don't get me wrong here. The Bass plays just fine as it is but if I were to use this Bass regularly for Orchestra, I would need all the set-up done to be fully satisfied. The C-Extension would be icing on the cake unless all my other C's were suddenly sold.

My 5th choice actually is my 4/4 Mystery Bass that is nearing the end of its 4+ year re-birth restoration. The main problems with that is the size. It's too big to take out for the average Jazz duo or trio gig and is not what I would call in the least a 'solo' Bass for Jazz gigs. Plus, it's not actually done yet so time is against considering it as well.

Between the 4 Basses mentioned above in my rack and up for sale, I have to decide which one I will pull out and make into my Gut model Bass for both Orchestra (when the C-Ext. isn't needed) and Jazz gigs. All 4 Basses play well. The Batchelder I used for a few years exclusively before buying my first 'real' expensive Bass but I've had my thrills with it musically already. The Sirleto is also a very nice Bass but it doesn't speak to me as much personally as it has to a few buyers that have played it. The same goes with the Batchelder. Both of these are better left as-is because the response has been good and I expect them to find new homes sooner than later so best leave well enough alone.

This leaves the Pollmann and the new English Lott model. The Lott is the best candidate set-up wise as far as any future loss being that it hasn't been all done up yet. The only problem I have is that it was made as an Orchestra Bass just like the actual Lott it was copied from for its former owner and owner of the Lott that he played in one of the major London Orchestras. It is no Jazz solo Bass by any means as far as its intended design and use. It plays so smooth and sounds quite deep with spread and penetrating power just like the original Lott and it was made with old wood besides. Kind of a waste I would say to limit it to a 4-string Gut strung Bass. The winner I think by default is the Pollmann. It's deep, has power, it Bows and Pizz's well and has very friendly shoulders for Solo playing. That is the plus side from the playing stand point. From the Sale point of view, the fancy Carvings on the Busetto seem to scare some people. At rehearsal earlier this week, a Cellist turned around while I was warming up, looked at the Bass and said "WHAT is THAT?". I explained it briefly. The Bass is beautiful but in no subtle way. She is LOUD and clear in her beauty and is not to be mistaken in any way for a 'plain Jane' German Bass.

So, I figured that if I widen all the Slots on the Pollmann and just keep it that way? Then I will have a Bass with Guts that will be around for awhile. Also, while I'm at it, why not just put back the original lighter Pollmann Maple Tailpiece. The only heavy part about that Bass is the Ebony Tailpiece. The Bass itself is the lightest in weight of the 4 mentioned above so transporting it easier as well. After all, I really didn't buy the Pollmann to sell it the next day. I thought it was beautiful and sounded good as well. Might as well set a place for her at the table.. no?
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Old 12-08-2008, 08:37 AM
Phil Maneri Phil Maneri is offline
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Nothing much to say here Ken. Any of those would have been fine, I think the Pol is perfect. I deserves to be played more and the changes are small and totally reversible for not that much bread.

You putting on a set of Carlos Chordas?

You can send them to me after you're bored with them.
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Old 12-08-2008, 10:30 AM
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Thumbs up CCs..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Maneri View Post
Nothing much to say here Ken. Any of those would have been fine, I think the Pol is perfect. I deserves to be played more and the changes are small and totally reversible for not that much bread.

You putting on a set of Carlos Chordas?

You can send them to me after you're bored with them.
Yup, some CCs on the way. Bored with them? I wonder, how long will they last? Do you know? The Pollmann has that loud 'boooom' type sound. I am also looking forward to playing them in Orchestra as well. I kind of like the sound the Guts have. I am off till after the holidays in the Orchestra but have a duo and trio gig next week, all acoustic. Should be fun..
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Old 12-08-2008, 10:37 AM
Phil Maneri Phil Maneri is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
I wonder, how long will they last? Do you know?
Longer then you will with them I'd wager.
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Old 12-08-2008, 10:46 AM
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Talking wager?..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Maneri View Post
Longer then you will with them I'd wager.
Ok, big guy.. Make the bet..

Who's taking the odds on this?
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Old 12-08-2008, 03:08 PM
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Lightbulb Ok..

Strings are here and on the Bass. maybe I need more FB Camber because I get a high freq. buzz playing an 'E' on the 'D' string, 1st. pos. No other E buzzes and the Eb almost buzzes. I think it is the String itself maybe. Almost annoying but will see when I take her our next weekend for a couple of Gigs.

They play and Bow much easier than the regular Chordas. The Plain Guts do as the others do sort of separate at the bends in the Tuners and changes color from yellowish to whitish as soon as they bend. I thought this was only a problem from the heavier Chordas I had before but does the same with these. I don't remember how the Labella's did in this regard. I just can't recall.

The Bass is a bit louder and wider sounding now but this is a loud Bass to begin with. I think I made the right choice using this Bass over the others for the Guts. I also put on the Pollmann Maple Tailpiece. Looks more uniform now. I think Hatpeg Gears might be better as well for Guts. Less sharp bending above in the pegbox. The Batchelder has some newer Rubner Hatpegs but sounds nicest with Flexocors so I left it alone.

The only downfall I can see at the moment besides the Buzz on the 'E' note G-string is the slight separation/color change when they bend around the Tuners. Is this normal? It's been several decades since I used Gut daily in High School and probably never even noticed it then. We had some of the Red colored Guts then I recall as well as the yellowish regular ones on some of the Basses.

Anyway, this is the start of something different for me. Phil? Where is that Bet you mentioned?
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Old 12-10-2008, 12:40 AM
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Question Heights?

What String Heights do you Gut players use at the end of the Fingerboard?
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Old 12-22-2008, 02:08 PM
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Adrian Juras Adrian Juras is offline
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When I had Chordas on my 7/8 Czech, the strings were at about 8 mm on the G and 12 on the E. I guess you could go a bit higher, but it was comfortable right there. I'll never understand how Blanton played his bass the way it was set up. When you have that much space between the strings and the fingerboard it starts to feel very awkward.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:37 PM
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Cool heights..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian Juras View Post
When I had Chordas on my 7/8 Czech, the strings were at about 8 mm on the G and 12 on the E. I guess you could go a bit higher, but it was comfortable right there. I'll never understand how Blanton played his bass the way it was set up. When you have that much space between the strings and the fingerboard it starts to feel very awkward.
I looked just now after lowering them a notch the other day and they are at 5.5mm/G and 10.5mm/E .. This has something to do with the curve of the fingerboard as well. The Bass is easily convertible back to Orchestra settings for steels.
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Old 12-30-2008, 07:31 AM
Phil Maneri Phil Maneri is offline
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Seems like that might be pretty low for guts. When I used mine I was up around 8 on the G and 12 or so on the E.

What's Carlos' setup like?
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Old 12-30-2008, 05:49 PM
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Andreas Henningsson Andreas Henningsson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
What String Heights do you Gut players use at the end of the Fingerboard?
I use Velvet Garbos with a Gamut plain G. I think my G i somewhere around 10mm. That works fine for me, the strings vibrate freely, no buzz.
I've recently bought a set of N.O.S. Artone gut strings, but i can't put them on yet, need to widen the slots.

And about the string turning "whitish" when going onto the peg; I think it's normal, my Gamut looks that way too. I thought it might be the varnish but maybe it's just the way they behave when they bend around the peg.
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Old 02-18-2009, 01:26 PM
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Lightbulb Guts off..

The Guts are now off the Pollmann and the test has been completed. I only have about 10-12 hours of playing that I can recall but with fiddling with the bass in the office from time to time I am sure it's a bit longer than that.

Conclusion:
Thank god they invented steel strings..lol

I mean, the Guts are nice and organic but I would have to be in the audience to appreciate them if at all. Under the ear it's a struggle, at least for me.

Of the 3 sets I tested in the last 2-3 years (Chordas, Carlos Chordas and La Bellas) I think I liked the La Bella strings as much as the Carlos set for the brief time I tried each of them. The regular Chorda set was just too thick for my fingers but sounded equally good if not better. Playability is equally important to me in this regard.

Since these are still in good condition and totally re-usable I think passing them along to a deserving player that either uses Guts or could make good use of them is the best option.

So, I can ship them within the 48 states in USA but for my time and trouble I ask two things. One, offer me a usable old set of something that might interest me in exchange (no money) and two, put up a review of how they worked for you after they settle in to be fair to the nice people at Pirastro that allowed me to test them out and share some opinions here. Ok?

Email me directly at support@kensmithbasses.com and leave it sorta private as far as who gets them. Thx..
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Old 08-24-2010, 02:42 PM
Adrian Levi Adrian Levi is offline
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I am not a gut player and have had no real experience with them, but have a question regarding gut strings .A friend of mine replaced his steel strings with gut strings and said that he immediately noticed a drastic drop in volume on his D and G strings.
Would this have to do with the diminished downward string pressure on the top from the guts thus perhaps affecting sound post position, and is it the norm to have to reposition a soundpost to regain string volume evenness ...... or perhaps even rethinking tailpiece mass etc ?
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Old 10-06-2010, 12:36 AM
Calvin Marks Calvin Marks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian Levi View Post
I am not a gut player and have had no real experience with them, but have a question regarding gut strings .A friend of mine replaced his steel strings with gut strings and said that he immediately noticed a drastic drop in volume on his D and G strings.
Would this have to do with the diminished downward string pressure on the top from the guts thus perhaps affecting sound post position, and is it the norm to have to reposition a soundpost to regain string volume evenness ...... or perhaps even rethinking tailpiece mass etc ?
Just like steel strings, gut comes in a variety of different qualities. What was he using? By gut I assume you mean plain gut, right? Some instruments just don't like gut strings. My bass is built quite lightly and I do historically informed music so gut is absolutely essential, if you want detailed information on string types and gauges feel free to e-mail me. For my bass I get x2 more sound from gut than steel, but that's mainly because they're softer on my hands and I can put in my energy and soul into my playing.
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