The Lurker Speaks....

[Chip Diemond]

Ok… I’ll take my life in my hands and post something. And why not, for openers, my own thread in the ‘Bull Pit’? I’m a natural born lurker. I’ve lurked and continue to lurk the other place. I’ve lurked here since almost the first day. If truth were known, I’m intimidated by all you big-time cats. I play Bluegrass on an old C-1 with some pretty good players and I love it! I love the little kids dancing down front; I love the older folks singin’ along, and I love the guy in the back just standin’ there smilin’ and tappin’ his foot to the music I’m helpin’ to make. It brings tears to my eyes sometimes and that’s plenty enough for me.

It was really too bad that Mr. Smith felt the need to leave the other place. And I make no judgment on why that was necessary. I’m a person who enjoys and respects the ‘gruff old farts’ especially when they have what it takes to back up what it is they have to say, which Mr. Smith certainly does. Still and all, I think both sides suffer in a couple ways. The other place suffers greatly for the lack of Mr. Smith’s sometimes pithy but never irrelevant comments and this site suffers from lack of…. bluntly, the dumb newbie’s. The other thing is that there are those who took sides and as a result don’t much post either place… I for one miss them. The upright bass community in all its shades, suffers. It’s too bad there can’t be some rapprochement. The sum of the two is less than the whole…

So I guess that’s enough.. I’ll close with two questions:

1, Mr. Smith; why is it that you never use the word ‘upright’ in your eBay listings?

2. Am I welcome here?

Chip in Seattle

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Chip Diemond

So I guess that’s enough.. I’ll close with two questions:

1, Mr. Smith; why is it that you never use the word ‘upright’ in your eBay listings?

2. Am I welcome here?

Chip in Seattle

2) Welcome, yes, why not?

1) Upright? That is not the name of the Bass. It's just a slang description.

It is a Double Bass, String Bass, Contra Bass or just Bass.

The Cello is a sit down Bass while in most Orchestras the Double Bassists sit on a stool slanting their Bass as they play.

Even standing, it is not played Upright but rather at a slight angle. Before the Bass Guitar existed or in mass use which is played slightly Horizontal, it was called just the Bass. Look on the back of any Jazz record (that's what they were b4 CDs, records) and see after Piano they list just Bass and then Drums. Do they list acoustic Piano? What else is there? Do they list Upright Bass? What other Bass would you expect? You see Trumpet and Trombone but not Slide Trombone because they all or most have Slides. You do see Tenor or Also Sax, etc as there is more than one kind but in the Bass world of the Double Bass, other than various sizes and designs they are just Basses by description.

Do we say Bass and not Base! Principal Bass or First Base, not Short Stop? First Bass and not First Baseman!

Because I am one of the minorities in the world that know the difference between slang and proper/real names, I chose in writing mostly not to refer to it as an Upright Bass. Makes it sound as if there is another kind? Since I have been playing Bass and now in the Symphony, I haven't seen another type in my section.

In the commercial music word where either is used and mostly the Electric/BG, Upright is used to differentiate it from the Fender or Smith type Bass (are there other brands too?...lol).

Here in the DB World Upright is a given because we just can't get it under our Chin!

[stan haskins]

Originally Posted by Chip Diemond

The other thing is that there are those who took sides and as a result don’t much post either place…

Then there are idiots like me who keep posting in both places !

Welcome, Chip. I think bluegrass is cool. Go and give me suggestions in the "fiddle music" thread (Double bass playing, general)http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=216

[Richard Prowse]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Upright? That is not the name of the Bass. It's just a slang description.

It is a Double Bass, String Bass, Contra Bass or just Bass.

Contra is of Latin origin and means 'against'.
The Against Bass? Would that be more English?
I know a guy who has a bass made entirely of string. He calls it a 'string bass'.
If you look at your double bass when you're really p1ssed, do you see four basses?
I know that 'bass violin' is not technically accurate, but I think I'll use it because it sounds better that 'against bass'... which sounds like you have conflict with the instrument when playing it.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by stan haskins

Then there are idiots like me who keep posting in both places!

I also still post occasionally on TB, but like many others I lost the desire to be an active participant after the purge or what ever you want to call it. Although this site does not have the participation numbers of TB, I personally find that there seems to be a lot more adults (mentally) over here.

[Steve_M]

What purge was that, Bob?

[Bob Branstetter]

I doubt if anyone here wants to rehash that business over again. If you are interested, you can go to the TB forums and search Miscellaneous [DB] for "Ken Smith". There are still some threads left there from around January 2007 that will give you an idea of what happened.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

I doubt if anyone here wants to rehash that business over again. If you are interested, you can go to the TB forums and search Miscellaneous [DB] for "Ken Smith". There are still some threads left there from around January 2007 that will give you an idea of what happened.

The actual Thread that all this happened in was deleted by me. There are Threads before and after but the main one I deleted which was actually created to smooth things out but I got caught in the crossfire.

The whole thing in my view was Money motivated as their main advertiser was over protected to the degree that the Mods would close, edit and delete posts if they shined any light in a direction which they felt were taboo. Those include the advertiser that owned most of the banner space and the Mods themselves regardless of what they say or who they personally attack or insult.

When I first joined TB it was to defend claims against my product, company and myself. I did that fairly well and in a short time including rallying many supporters. One of the flame throwers then was a Mod and today he still is a Mod. In this latest instance a member started making insulting comments about me which were off topic and off color as well. I asked that same Mod of a few years past to delete his off topic insulting comments or I will leave TB and delete my threads. He thought it was OK to air things out in MY thread which he them deemed an Airing Thread which it wasn't but served his justifications well. I had no business at all with this guy but he felt he needed to take aim like a sniper from behind TBs womb.

What we all didn't know then was that the guy attacking me on-line was just about to become a MOD in a day or so which was decided behind the scenes. Paul of TB warned me after that I was NOT allowed to say things about the Mods because they are Immune from actions. What that person did was days before he became a Mod and nothing to do at all with being a Mod or even the thread topic itself!

Keeping my word and my back against the wall I proceeded to delete THAT Thread which had personal insults and then spent the rest of the evening and most of the next day deleting my Posts and Threads. What I left was the ones about the Historical Basses which had a lot of input from others as well as older ones that couldn't be deleted anymore. I deleted about 600 threads out of almost 3,800 I had posted.

A few days later the Mod started his own thread about 'don't look at me' kind of thing saying he didn't delete the thread but rather I did. This thread grew a bit in a few days but the Mod never said what led me to do what I did. I mentioned how I was attacked out of color there and the Mod would not 'moderate' it as he should like he has in the past in a controlling 'thought police' manner for a certain advertiser which there is another thread as well about this.

I then made a comment directed at Paul (TB owner) 'what a Fxxxxing dog and pony show' you have here meaning that for a big advertiser he can plant shills and have all the negative comments and those of discovery deleted or edited but for the rest of us, we must take the 'censored/controlled' Forum or leave it!

I didn't spell out that word above in my Post with the xxxx's. Actually, Paul deleted it 2x and I dared him in the first attempt to leave my comment for all to see and understand what actually did happen. After all the questions of what happened, he reposts my 'fight back' post as if that was the actual reason why I am off of TB. NO, it was my reaction to what actually happened and not what did happen. After that, I was not able to Post or PM or even edit my own Profile because I was Blocked or Banned. I could Log in, read and search but could not reply or participate in anyway. Paul went on to add that I was NOT Banned and was gone on my own accord which was an outright lie. Then he added later that I could come back if I agreed to abide by his Rules which in my mind, I never broke. It was his 'Mod to be' that broke the rules by attacking me on-line but he couldn't admit that or take action because another Mod just quit in the midst of this 'thought police' accusations which was started by Jeff Bollbach and was justified in doing so and he needed him to replace the other Mod.

TBs money policies and Mod actions have a big part in this as well as the Mods actually being participants. Sort of a conflict of interest in my eye but hey, it's a public Forum. Now I'm gone an started my own, much smaller and non-commercial party as far as monies go. I have talked with Paul since and he says the same thing about an agreement. I told him to let me on as-is because I never broke the agreement before. This is his actual living now and his Orchestra job a second as far as I can tell.

I don't at all mind talking about this and TB so if you have questions, then we can have them here. I don't want to start a new thread 'why ken left TB' and make it a bashing party.

I see very few of the older type more serious DB/Bow type questions we used to see there. We do get some here and they get some there but for the most part, there is just less of it all around. To help this along, if you see a thread on TB about DBs that needs professional help, feel free to PM the thread starter and give him the link over here. Just be sure to remind him to use his real/full name so we don't have to chase him down for it..lol

Thx guys and gals for hanging out here. It has been working out real good in my eyes regardless of the much smaller crowd we have.

[Steve_M]

Well Ken, you have my vote of sympathy. I've got issues with their mods too, but based on their apathy rather than a hidden agenda. Good on ya for airing the issue anyway.

Bob - thanks for clarifying, I have threads saved already.

I find Paul at Talkbass inconsistent which is unfortunate in my view.

I've been bullied on Talkbass because I own and run a competitive forum at www.basschat.co.uk and the tribal nature that sometimes exists on Talkbass singled me out after someone on Bassworld took issue with me over acting in respect of their behaviour. Basschat used to be www.bassworld.co.uk but there's a whole story behind that which I won't go into in this thread. Check out my other post on this forum here if you're interested.

Paul sent me an pm recently regarding how a test-site we'd registered for bassworld called "basstalk.co.uk" was "smearing" its interests with talkbass. We're going to keep the domain for the forseeable future but point it to the Basschat webforum, which seems to be doing amazingly well with over 600 members signing up in 3 weeks since its inception! We've also managed to shake some of the forum parasites too so it all looks good - all the best people have stayed. BTW, if any of you feel like an alternative to TB, give us some consideration. We're smaller but a lot friendlier and every member does actually exist!

I reckon Paul's making a good income from Talkbass and as its sole "employee" he's bound to protect his own interests. Unfortunately Talkbass.com is so big that I think its unlikely a politically influential clique will get an overview (or even care, for that matter). Its difficult for one voice to be remembered.

Ken did the absolute right thing in setting this forum up. As I've already said previously, if he hadn't done it this year, I would have.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Steve_M

Well Ken, you have my vote of sympathy. I've got issues with their mods too, but based on their apathy rather than a hidden agenda. Good on ya for airing the issue anyway.

Bob - thanks for clarifying, I have threads saved already.

I find Paul at Talkbass inconsistent which is unfortunate in my view.

I reckon Paul's making a good income from Talkbass and as its sole "employee" he's bound to protect his own interests. Unfortunately Talkbass.com is so big that I think its unlikely a politically influential clique will get an overview (or even care, for that matter). Its difficult for one voice to be remembered.

Ken did the absolute right thing in setting this forum up. As I've already said previously, if he hadn't done it this year, I would have.

Well thank's for the vote of sympathy Steve but my intention here and there as well was just a bright light shining on the truth. I did not go on TB for 'hobby' reasons initially but with my interests rekindling in the DB field it did turn in that direction. Then as I decided to 'double up' and start selling Basses and Bows once again and it was back to business but with my hobby being my work. I enjoyed meeting Jeff and Arnold thru TB and still enjoy their company on occasion as well as meeting all the other Luthiers that if not for TB I may have never known they existed.

Only a few are rubbed the wrong way as far as the TB commercial policies go which carry with them the protection of some of the advertisers but if that's what they (Paul and his helpers) want it to be then I will just spend my time and energy elsewhere.

In the BG field I answered a lot of questions and shared my knowledge with many including the development of the Luthiers Forum on TB which quickly grew into a do-it-yourselfer's page but hey, that's what the call progress these days. In the DB world I got reacquainted with my old self on all levels and learned a bit about what I had missed in the last 15-20 years being away from it. In return, I shared my past experiences and knowledge of various Bass making Schools as well as new research and a few musical things along the way. Yes, I was a professional Bassist for 20 years and have plenty of stories to tell but most do not know that about me. TB gave me a chance to come alive again verbally and musically only to see a few resent my presence especially when my postings made a few see where they might be wrong about something and resented it.

So now we have this Forum which requires Real names for which some bravery must be rewarded for posting publicly for the world to see. This month alone we have averaged 731 unique visits per day for the first 28 days of the month of May. Although Posting is low as compared to other Forums, it's the quality of the text and the people writing it that makes it worth spending time on-line. This includes Richard 'The Poet" from Down somewhere..lol

[Richard Prowse]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

This includes Richard 'The Poet" from Down somewhere..lol

Ah, thanks Ken for the vote of confidence. For me there is only one bass site... right here. Hey, I enjoy reading the serious threads too. Did you ever get to play that cornerless bass as a three string?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Richard Prowse

Ah, thanks Ken for the vote of confidence. For me there is only one bass site... right here. Hey, I enjoy reading the serious threads too. Did you ever get to play that cornerless bass as a three string?

It has been a 4-string Bass for at least 100 years or more from the date of the Tuners in the Bass which are high quality Brass gears with Iron handles/worms with laminated with Brass plated laminated caps or something like that one the handles and a large Pearl inlay in the Gear itself. I have seen these before on some old Basses so I guess 1850 to 1900 or so on the date of the Tuners alone. That's also a good dating for the 4-string conversion as well with most of Germany and Eastern Europe playing 4 and some 5s with England, Italy and France partially or mostly switching over.

[Richard Prowse]

Interesting. Yes, I realised after leaving for work that the '3 string' thing was actually a silly question since the scroll had been cut for a string extender before you got it.

[Ken Smith]

Yes, that was done about 30 years go or so and the Owner of the Bass did not like at all what the repaired did. Back then, cutting the Scroll was not such a big deal but on some Basses, it's just a crime. Arnold will do his best to re-build the head as it looked originally before making a chromatic extension which will hide most if not all of this repair anyway. Not that I have the Bass, it is a rescue mission to restore everything properly to last to the next century.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Chip Diemond

I hold no status here... I started this thread honestly and with due respect... It's been derailed in what I consider a rather rude fashion.

I wish you'd take your mindless chit-chat elswhere... Let the thread die. I don't wish to be associated..

Chip in Seattle

I have just deleted the off topic posts here. Even though this is the Bull Pit, we still have to respect other posters guys. Sry Chip.. hopefully this can get back on topic.

[Chip Diemond]

Thank you Mr Smith. While I am not generally a big fan of the 'delete' key, [let the gentlemen be who they are for all to see], in this case certainly nothing was lost... And I have learned something; I honestly never knew that 'upright' was considered a slang term...

Thanks also for the PM, I agree.

Chip

[David Powell]

Wow! So that's what happened. I was not keeping up with that stuff at the time it went down.

Well, this is the first time I've read Ken's full side of this. I must say, it explains quite a bit in a way that certainly is supported by my own experiences at TB. I have continued to post over there at TB mostly on the BG side these days, but I'm certainly reconsidering my involvement there. There have been some changes over there in policy recently that must be directly due to Ken's departure, but still. A good bit of what I suspected for a long time is confirmed here, particularly about the unmentionable advertiser whose identity I can only guess with a very high degree of certainty. Ken, you always have had my utmost respect even if you had to earn it the hard way. Thanks so much for standing your ground and not backing down. I know that you'd do that without thanks but thank-you anyway.

And just so there is no mistake about my identity, I am known there as Silversorcerer. Maybe it's time for me to check out of there for good as well. I was really reluctant to join that forum for a few years, but eventually it seemed like it was a genuine place. In fact when I started seeing Ken's posts, that's when I decided it would be worth while. Talk about full circle. It's making my head spin.

[Chip Diemond]

You are correct sir. Nothing was lost. Why did I mention the PM? Just to tweak you I suppose. [Took awhile, but it was apparently successful…] I guess you’ll just have to wonder.

I come here to learn about bass.. I like to hear what Mr. Smith, Mr. Warburton, Mr. Schnitzer, [I’m gonna’ buy a bass from him one day!] Mr. Branstetter, Mr. Bolach, Mr. Lloyd, Mr. Johnson, ‘Silversorcerer’ [he identified himself, but I lost it], just to name a few, have to say about anything bass… The list goes on & on. For me, nothing in this world would top getting these guys all together in a room, buy a boatload of beer, and just sit back & listen to the stories… My ‘weird’ I guess.

So if you’d choose to throw a stone, please do feel free, it is after all, the ‘Bull Pit’. My only request is that you keep it on topic… Hope springs eternal…

Chip in Seattle

PS; Please forgive my mis-spellings… I could look ‘em all up, but I want to get this posted.

[Chip Diemond]

To suggest that I would come, as an invited guest, into Mr. Smith’s house and not abide by his rules distresses me. [Considering the source, I’ll get over it...] If you had half a brain between you, you could confirm my identity beyond any question… in a heartbeat. Much as I have yours. Here’s a hint in “Jeopardy” format; ‘An Ellington is a brand of Baldwin’, What is….? Makes it almost too easy but you guys need the help. [Note to gentle readers; Don’t give it away too quick… Give’m a couple weeks.]

The one thing that does trouble me to a degree is that I am in serious danger of losing my lurker status over this mindless chatter. The upside however, is that if I can sufficiently occupy/overload your limited capacities, perhaps it will result in a reduction of the pollution on the real threads here…

Point to ponder… Was there ever a PM?, or was it just one of those ‘tweaker tricks’ to draw you out so that you could continue to demonstrate your lack of ‘bandwidth’. Don’t ‘cha just gotta’ wonder?

Bye-the-bye; do the kids down there in your part of the world play T-Ball?

So far you guys are oh fer’ four, [give or take]. Come on! Gimme’ something to work with here!!

Chip

PS; Awarded: two (2) ‘style’ points for being able to pronounce my last name correctly.

PSS; What happened to the post that used to be between #22 & #23??... All of a sudden this is gettin' a little scary.

[Chip Diemond]

Well, I’m confused…. Could be me, but I’d swear there are now posts prior to the last one I read this morning when I left for work.. In any case here’s how I see what went down:

I was the original poster. I introduced myself, made a polite comment, and asked a couple questions.

Subsequently the thread was hi-jacked in what I considered to be a rude and inconsiderate fashion.

I protested, and the off-topic posts were removed. [It shoulda’ been dead right there.]

Some while later a post appeared questioning my ‘nothing was lost’ comment.

I responded to that post confirming my assessment of the deleted posts. I also held forth on why it is that I visit Mr. Smith’s site. [Hindsight tells me that this post was my first mistake]

Then there was the ‘tweaker’ comment that was somewhat distasteful. [It was subsequently deleted by the poster and later restored]

I responded to the effect that that comment was not appropriate.

There was a post to the effect that perhaps it would be wise to ‘stay away from this thread’…. [Coulda’ ended there too.] But no…

Then it was suggested that I was posting under an assumed name. I’ll be honest with ya’, that one pissed me off, which lead to last night’s full on broadside…. [Second mistake.] I was under the impression that what I had on my hands was your standard internet ‘flame war’… I’ve done those. Boy was I wrong…. Waaaay wrong.

[Please note, I’m doing this from memory, if I’ve gotten something wrong, please call me on it.]

For Richard/Robert; the answer to the ‘Jeopardy’ question is ‘player piano’. Had you done your research you would have known that. There was a PM, I was only toyin’ with ya’. T-Ball is a kind of baseball played by young children. No pitcher, they set the ball up on on a ‘tee’ for the batter to swing at. The reference had to do with the fact that I had served you up with several topics to respond to.

Mr. Smith, you have a tough ‘row to hoe’. I don’t envy you.

I’m happy to respond to any polite poster who might wish to comment.

So there ya’ have it. I’m honestly not sure if I’m the ‘Troll’ or ‘Trollee’. The clicking sound you hear is me…. tap dancing off, stage left…

Chip