ISB 2013, Fifths

[Robert J Spear]

We all know the advantages and drawbacks of fifths tuning; how the #$%@!* are you supposed to shift? The answer seems to be that you don't. A newer and more flexible technique is necessary. There have been a couple developed by Dennis Masuzzo in the USA and Silvio Dalla Torre and others in Europe. I understand the Joel Quarrington in Canada is also working on a method book that will, with luck, be introduced at ISB 2013.

But no matter how you finesse it, when you are playing on a bass with a string length of 41 1/2" - 43", fifths-tuning is a challenge. As a luthier and a long-ago bass player with only average-size hands, my feeling was that fifths tuning would get a boost when the instrument was designed for it; principally, when the string length was shortened. There are big problems with both, but modern string technology now allows for shorter string lengths with good sound.

It's also quite amazing that reducing the string length by just two inches makes a huge difference in fifths-tuning technique in the lower positions (except that you might have to think in a concept other than traditional positions). I actually had a bass designed with a string length of 38", but it required the thumb stop to be low and the shoulders got in the way (not by much) of reaching for the octave harmonic. The players definitely drew the line here. I increased the string length to 39" on a bass with a body length of 43 3/4", which is certainly in the realm of a standard 3/4 bass, and that reduced the problem considerably. It sometimes takes only a small adjustment to create a big-feeling difference. Perhaps the same would be true in how we think about a new tuning system and fingering technique.

In any case, I think ISB 2013 will be the place to be if you have any interest in the topic. And if you don't, it will probably still be the place to be!

[Ken Smith]

I think that if a bass is shortened or a bass is made shorter/smaller, it will have less depth in the tone than being 2 or more inches longer. I have and have had basses that were shortened in several ways from neck grafts, block cuts, false nuts and bridge shifts as well as some combinations of 2 or 3 items mentioned. The playability for finger stretch gets easier but often you are pushing the notes lower down away from the player in the upper register making that F# or G octave that much further away to find.

The sound is often more focused if that was a problem to begin with but there is some equal amount of depth loss in the process. The instrument being a bass to begin with is fairly deep anyway considering we are talking about a fairly large instruments over 3/4 or 4/4 even.

Now, from a players stand point, I don't see many people who are working to memorize fingerings for everything they play to avoid mistakes and intonation problems doubling on a bass in 5ths. Playing in 5ths is basically a move to playing a GIANT Cello that from a distance, is called a Bass!

You can play and double on 4-string in 4ths, 4-str. with C-Ext. of any variety or even 5-string bass BUT, with everything tuned in 4ths or occasionally the Low B moved up to C for some passages. Playing in 5ths is a Life change and is no small adjustment on ones mind either.

I can see some small improvements in playing in 5ths and some small numbers moving to it as well but I do not at all see this as a change in how the bass will be played in the future. It took centuries until the world agreed on the main tuning in 4ths with 4 strings and now some think they need to go back to a tuning that helped drive people TO playing in 4ths.

The 3-string bass in France was played in 5ths for extra range 150-200 years ago and then the switch to 4-string gave them that range and more. In most of Europe and partially in the UK, if you need the full Cello/Double Bass range, you play a 5-string bass. In USA, C-Extensions are much more common than 5-Strings but the 5s are out there as well.

Making a bass small enough to play in 5ths comfortably is just making in my opinion, a half sized bass with less bass depth in the sound. Most players I know are looking for more thick bass depth in their sound, not less.

I have to side with ken 100% on this topic. The biggest thing for me as well is the notes. Great playing, speed & good intonation come from reputation and playing those same positions repeatedly for years, for me changing seems like a nightmare. On a side note, I've always been fascinated by harmonics (on electric) but there again they really mess with my head when I know this fret as #f or bG but for harmonics there can be two notes inside the same fret that differ from the fretted note.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Joshua phelps

I have to side with ken 100% on this topic. The biggest thing for me as well is the notes. Great playing, speed & good intonation come from reputation and playing those same positions repeatedly for years, for me changing seems like a nightmare. On a side note, I've always been fascinated by harmonics (on electric) but there again they really mess with my head when I know this fret as #f or bG but for harmonics there can be two notes inside the same fret that differ from the fretted note.

Please, lets leave Frets out of this, lol..

I said "on a side note" jeez

I meant to say "repetition" on that previous post as well, thanks auto correct