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  #1  
Old 06-23-2010, 11:19 PM
Srikanth Narayanan Srikanth Narayanan is offline
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Default Xue Chang Sun basses?

Hi all,

This is my first post on this forum. I'm not sure if this belongs here or in This New Bass: Chinese/Asian. Please place it where you think best.

I'm curious if anyone here knows much about Xue Chang Sun the man, and about the quality of the instruments that his shop makes. From what I've read on the Internet, his shop makes violins, violas, cellos and basses and he's won awards. Has anyone met the man? Metaphorically, how does he tie his shoes? Are his work shops small or large, does he supervise the basses made or is he a 'hands off' kind of guy?

I've played on a few 7/8th size carved round backs that I think came from his shop, with one labelled as a "Sinfonica". What can I say, other than it sounded good and played well. I'm not yet an experienced judge of double bass quality. I'm also not sure about other bass types coming out from his shop, and how they stack up in terms of design & build quality, sound and pricing.

I currently play a Strunal 50/4 ply. I like it, it sounds good pizz, and amplifies well. Practicing with the bow is so-so, but I don't perform with a bow. It's serving me well, but sometimes I wonder about upgrading.

I'm checking out these Xue Chang Sun basses and some others. I've never played a Shen bass, but are these two shops similar in product output, quality, sound, price?

BTW is his name Xue Chang Sun, or Xuechang Sun?

regards,
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  #2  
Old 06-24-2010, 03:04 AM
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Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
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Cool humm

I highly doubt that the man himself does anything but run the company as far as basses go. Winning awards is usually for making a violin by hand individually. The price for a hand made bass is many times that of a Chinese shop bass which this most likely is.

I personally know Sam Shen who is known for just about the best basses from China. He doesn't make them. His workers do.

I have a couple of basses left that I ordered from a good Chinese maker that sound better than all of the high Shen's I compared them to. They are called 'Amati' model from KSB. If looking to upgrade I suggest you drive down and try either the one I have here or the modified Deluxe model that Arnold has in his shop in NY with a higher quality fingerboard & bridge with a CF Graphite inlaid neck as well.

Take the drive. You will save money and get a good bass education.
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Old 06-25-2010, 08:15 PM
Srikanth Narayanan Srikanth Narayanan is offline
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Thanks for the tip. When the time is right I may have to get some friends together and do a road trip. Do you suggest having a standardized "checklist" way to test different basses for sound and playability?
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Old 06-25-2010, 08:22 PM
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Thumbs up yes..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Srikanth Narayanan View Post
Thanks for the tip. When the time is right I may have to get some friends together and do a road trip. Do you suggest having a standardized "checklist" way to test different basses for sound and playability?
Play each bass the same, bow and pizz, same exact music to compare and then listening to another person play for you as you listen close and at a distance. At a distance is how they sound to others.

Here, I will do the playing for you if you come without a bass player. I know a few notes..
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Old 06-26-2010, 08:46 AM
Ken McKay Ken McKay is offline
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X Sun makes nice "Chinese workshop" basses. I have sold quite a few of their violins, cello and violas. I would rate them the best of the chinese instruments I have seen. The workmanship is excellent, finish is well executed.

They are, however still a chinese style bass and are easily identified from across the room. Not a bad thing, just a comment.
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Old 06-26-2010, 08:59 AM
Ken McKay Ken McKay is offline
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Here is the Sinfonica. It is their lowest of their line of all solid wood, carved basses.

www.sinomanmusic.com/images/Big/01-Xuechang-Sun/04Bass/BA-401.jpg

And this has better wood.
http://www.sinomanmusic.com/images/B...ass/BA-402.jpg

And better yet.

http://www.sinomanmusic.com/images/B...ass/BA-406.jpg
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Old 06-26-2010, 10:35 AM
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Lightbulb from across the room?

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Originally Posted by Ken McKay View Post
X Sun makes nice "Chinese workshop" basses. I have sold quite a few of their violins, cello and violas. I would rate them the best of the chinese instruments I have seen. The workmanship is excellent, finish is well executed.

They are, however still a chinese style bass and are easily identified from across the room. Not a bad thing, just a comment.
If you can tell they are Chinese from across the room then they are not all that good. I remember playing in an Orchestra several years ago when another bass pro beside me said "is that a NEW Bass?". The bass didn't have any cracks and barely any scratches or mars but didn't look like a new bass. Then when I said "yes, its a Shen, Chinese" it was almost a shock!

One day, a pro bassist from Europe was trying basses out in another shop and there to pick up a bass I was selling. I had one of my Amati Shop basses there and asked him to try it. He tried my bass and then 2 other high end Shens and said mine was much better sound wise and I agreed 100%.

On your claim Ken, the people who make Violins, Violas and Cellos are NOT the same people, team or maybe even shop in some cases that make the Basses. Even in China between shops, things get farmed out to those that specialize. Comparing Violins to Basses by label is not the whole picture. Compare the basses to basses!
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Old 06-26-2010, 03:27 PM
Srikanth Narayanan Srikanth Narayanan is offline
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Hey Ken's , I'm enjoying the info...

You've both mentioned via photos, the figurations and flames in the wood, either in the regular Amati, / the Deluxe Amati or the various Sinfonicas pictured above. Is this flame just cosmetic, or does it influence the sound in an audible way? Highly figured wood seems to be reserved for pricier versions of instruments. Is this because compared to plainer looking wood, figured wood transfers vibrations+sound better, or is it just that figured wood is prettier?

About looking "Chinese"... well it does not look like these ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Bof1GlvAo0

That's Chinese.

Obviously, you two have sharp eyes for details, but in a general way, is it relevant to a player if the bass looks Chinese, Italian, German, Czech, U.S.A. or other nationality? At some point, once the quality is there, should not makers be proud of their birth names, their nationality and their designs?

For instance, since these Amati's are so good in a real sense, at some point would it not be better for the Chinese makers to label the basses with their own names? Even allow their styles to be more recognizable? Buyers will learn the new names and adapt, right?

===

Backtracking a bit...

What questions do you advise someone to ask him/herself, in order to find out if it's time to upgrade instruments?

Between one's own 'emotional mind' and one's own 'rational mind', who leads the the search for, and evaluation of, an instrument, and who has the final say?

thanks,
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Old 06-26-2010, 03:59 PM
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Cool questions..

On the Flame figure vs. sound or quality, there is no science that I am aware of on the looks of wood. Flamed maple from the same tree is harder than non flamed wood as the density is generally higher in figured woods. Maybe that is considered a plus in making a Violin.

Prettier instruments usually sell for more than those not as pretty but not necessarily with the classics. Many old Italian Basses were made with Poplar, Willow, Walnut, Pearwood and local Oppio, a type or Maple native to northern Italy. Makers like Strad used imported wood for his Violins. Some other makes used local woods. Basses and Cellos would get less of the pretty woods due to cost, especially the basses.

We know now 200-300 years later or even less that looks are looks. In the wood business, the higher the figure, the more the cost regardless of the sound.

Ok, on your other questions this is more than just a short answer. maybe a class or a semester if not more.

As far as makers using their own name, I agree with this IF they are the ones selling them. In history going back 100s of years, if someone orders something for re-sale to be made, that shop put's their label in it. I would have to say that there are more instruments in the world with names other than the makers than those correctly labeled by the maker or even shop. For the most part, the majority of instruments made are NOT made by one individual maker either.

On my Amati model basses, I make no secret of the fact they were sold to me from a shop in China. I don't even know the exact maker. I was told who the master is but I never witnessed him making the basses.
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Old 06-26-2010, 04:11 PM
Ken McKay Ken McKay is offline
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X Sun basses are good! Shen makes some nice basses also. I can tell a chinese bass because I have looked at a lot of chinese instruments and know the wood figure and varnish. took a look at Ken's Amati basses and they look excellent! Maybe comparable to the top model of the X Sun line.

Around here, the teacher usually suggests its time to upgrade as the player progresses, knowing that the parents are hard pressed to come up with the cashola.
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Old 06-26-2010, 04:31 PM
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Cool know the wood?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken McKay View Post
X Sun basses are good! Shen makes some nice basses also. I can tell a chinese bass because I have looked at a lot of chinese instruments and know the wood figure and varnish. took a look at Ken's Amati basses and they look excellent! Maybe comparable to the top model of the X Sun line.

Around here, the teacher usually suggests its time to upgrade as the player progresses, knowing that the parents are hard pressed to come up with the cashola.
How can you tell a Chinese Bass that is made with European or British Colombian wood?

My 1997 Shen is European wood. Several of my Amati models were made with wood from Canada. How would you be able to tell then? I can 'sniff' out the broad Chinese figured Maple but the Spruce tops look like everything else. New German and Romanian bass tops look about the same depending in the Varnish.

Hey, move east across Europe and then thru Russia. Don't you eventually hit China? How are the Tree species different there if the countries connect across the same continent?

Have you seen many Shen Basses made in the 800 or 1000 model series?

Ok, and thanks for the compliment on my basses. I only have towe of them left.
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Old 06-26-2010, 05:36 PM
Ken McKay Ken McKay is offline
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I can't tell much from the top until I get close. Once a maker gets the top off of many of these chinese instruments and regraduates, it starts to look familiar. Funny thing, some of the Himalayan spruce I've worked on carves like a cross between bamboo and cardboard. Still, they sound good if they are graduated correctly.

I sell a line of violins that are made from either All Euro wood, Euro top and Himalayan maple, or all Himalayan wood. They all sound good in their own way. But the top of the line Euro model stands out in some very subtle ways. Some of this has to do with the care taken by the makers in the small workshop of maybe 14 trained employees under one master. When working on the top level they spend a little more time and the master actually does some graduating himself.

I have seen the Shen bass line. I have ordered them. They are a remarkable company to deal with. They design some very nice instruments and the fit and finish is among the best out there. I think the willow back and sides are a great idea also and I don't see any other chinese maker using it. I usually only have to touch up the fingerboard to get it playing perfectly. Admittedly most of what I sell is entry level or step up.
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Old 06-26-2010, 05:49 PM
Srikanth Narayanan Srikanth Narayanan is offline
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Default this wood

So can these ordinary pics tell you guys something about this particular bass? If it can, please let me know. BTW, even the regular Amati in the photo section looks gorgeous. How nice are the flames on the below bass?

(If Chinese makers were buying Canadian or European wood, would that push them into Canadian/USA and European prices?)
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Old 06-26-2010, 06:10 PM
Srikanth Narayanan Srikanth Narayanan is offline
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Default more pics

inside, + outside top
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Old 06-26-2010, 07:00 PM
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Srikanth Narayanan View Post
So can these ordinary pics tell you guys something about this particular bass? If it can, please let me know. BTW, even the regular Amati in the photo section looks gorgeous. How nice are the flames on the below bass?

(If Chinese makers were buying Canadian or European wood, would that push them into Canadian/USA and European prices?)
That is nice flames, about a medium grade. On the cost difference it was about $1,000 extra per bass List price with Shen back in 1997, The ones I sell I have at an additional $500 street price as it's mainly just the maple. The local wood wasn't free to them either, just possibly less expensive than importing wood and the extra high figure is more money in any part of the world.

Last edited by Ken Smith; 06-26-2010 at 11:33 PM. Reason: 1997, not 1977
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Old 06-27-2010, 09:43 AM
Srikanth Narayanan Srikanth Narayanan is offline
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For instrument buyers today, it's nice to read of prices going down in 13 years!

In what price range of round back instruments, does one find flamed wood of medium grade most commonly being used?
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Old 06-27-2010, 09:54 AM
Srikanth Narayanan Srikanth Narayanan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken McKay View Post
Here is the Sinfonica. It is their lowest of their line of all solid wood, carved basses.

www.sinomanmusic.com/images/Big/01-Xuechang-Sun/04Bass/BA-401.jpg

And this has better wood.
http://www.sinomanmusic.com/images/B...ass/BA-402.jpg

And better yet.

http://www.sinomanmusic.com/images/B...ass/BA-406.jpg
Thanks for those links. I went to the Sinomanmusic main website and found out that importer is in nearby Toronto.
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Old 07-01-2010, 12:20 PM
Calvin Marks Calvin Marks is offline
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I own a XChang Sun bass "Master" model. It was my first instrument and I still have it but would of course love to sell. Nice instruments at a good price.
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Old 07-19-2010, 09:59 PM
Thomas Wolf Thomas Wolf is offline
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I love the Sun basses. I use one in DC for concert rental. Currently two are in use at a very good local festival with international players. Tom
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