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  #1  
Old 07-02-2009, 10:31 PM
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Question Where are they??

The BIG old German Basses from Mittenwald made 150 years ago and before, where are they? Other than a few for sale in London or Germany on occasion you hardly ever hear about them?

These would be those of the Kloz/Klotz family and the later Seitz/Seiz, Neuner and/or Hornsteiner family of makers. Throw in Baader/Bader while you're at it!

These are the real big 4/4 or 5/4 (as some call them) full sized Basses.

Is it possible that the Central European players love them so much that they just don't give them up? ..or?.. Has it just been more profitable for dealers scouring Europe over the years to bring back only Italian, English and French Basses?

Lets talk some German here.. Basses I mean.
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  #2  
Old 07-03-2009, 05:26 AM
Sked James Sked James is offline
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well, here is an Austrian bass for sale,
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=558909

..looks like a nice bass , and at the right price. I have played quite a few good sounding German basses , but can't say i find the look of many of them attractive . They can look a bit ugly.
This one looks nice . . Those hat peg tuners just don't do it for me though.
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Old 07-03-2009, 05:35 AM
Sked James Sked James is offline
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here is a couple of Neuner & Hornsteiner , at the bottom of the page here , very nice looking basses ,
http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/bass/room.html
i played one once , had a huge sound , but it was such a large bass ,it was almost impossible to play , ... i'm 5'10 '' so no shorty , but i couldn't get around on that thing . If i remember, the stop was 44 inches .
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Old 07-03-2009, 08:53 AM
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Cool ok..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sked James View Post
well, here is an Austrian bass for sale,
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=558909

..looks like a nice bass , and at the right price. I have played quite a few good sounding German basses , but can't say i find the look of many of them attractive . They can look a bit ugly.
This one looks nice . . Those hat peg tuners just don't do it for me though.
Nice bass but it looks more German than Viennese to me. The label doesn't seem to match the bass either. If it were an 1809 dated bass German or Viennese then all you would need now to answer my call "where are they?" would be to have it in a 4/4 full sized. I am looking for the really BIG ones. Basses that measure somewhere like my Big Gamba which most believe is English but not everyone.

String length alone does not determine size in my book. It is the body length mainly. So 47-48" long or so is the targeted size for the 4/4. Bridge placement with or without centering on the F-hole nicks determine the string length. Depending on where the FFs were cut into the Top would determine the intended string length along with the length of the neck itself.

Nice Bass you links us to there but please, keep looking..
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Old 07-03-2009, 09:05 AM
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Thumbs up ok..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sked James View Post
here is a couple of Neuner & Hornsteiner , at the bottom of the page here , very nice looking basses ,
http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/bass/room.html
i played one once , had a huge sound , but it was such a large bass ,it was almost impossible to play , ... i'm 5'10 '' so no shorty , but i couldn't get around on that thing . If i remember, the stop was 44 inches .
This one here is closer to what I am looking for but 1869 is more like the factory era of the firm N&H. They actually had that company for about 250 years so I guess the factory thing is cool. I am looking for original old Basses by Neuner, Seitz, Klotz, Stainer (if any real ones exist), Hornsteiner (if there are non-firm made basses), Baader, and any from other individual makers that made those big 4/4 full sized Basses. Some may have even been made (from what I have read) as 3-String Basses (yes, in Germany) but strung with only the Lower strings, the treble string removed so it supports the bottom of the Orchestra. Unlike the 3-string model from Italy, France, England and Spain where they removed the lower string. Making the bass 'full sized' would have been more practical for producing the lower fundamental bass notes desired.

So, keep 'em coming. May I suggest looking at Orchestras actually IN central Europe where the might be hiding there in the Bass section. From what I have read, several makers made 4/4 sized basses in Germany from the period I mentioned and mostly in Mittenwald. I just wanna see as many of them as I can find.
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Old 07-03-2009, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
...Is it possible that the Central European players love them so much that they just don't give them up? ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
...Orchestras actually IN central Europe where the might be hiding there in the Bass section. ...
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  #7  
Old 07-03-2009, 11:17 AM
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Question oh...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anselm Hauke View Post
Ok, you silence Sir Anselm is loudly heard!

Maybe being from this region, you could tell us things one would only learn from being a German native experiencing these 'hidden treasured basses' first hand.. Can you?
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Old 07-04-2009, 07:59 AM
Joel Larsson Joel Larsson is offline
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I suppose you have already seen http://www.contrabass.co.uk/2748.htm, but anyway.
I know that some basses like that are residing around the country. I guess it is only logical to assume that they are even more frequent in Germany... got that impression when I was down there in March.
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  #9  
Old 07-04-2009, 09:23 AM
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Cool well..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Larsson View Post
I suppose you have already seen http://www.contrabass.co.uk/2748.htm, but anyway.
I know that some basses like that are residing around the country. I guess it is only logical to assume that they are even more frequent in Germany... got that impression when I was down there in March.
I know that bass and the size is on track but that is a late bass for the period and age I am looking for. I am looking for c.1700 - c.1820 or so. Supposedly the American/Yankee maker Prescott took his ideas for his Gamba and Busetto/lower rounded corner and full sized model from one or some German basses at the time. This would be 1811-1830 or so in which some of them were first made in USA.

Also, the Hill family of London c.1760-1780 or so made basses with outer Rib linings that are thought to be of German design. So, where are the Basses that they copied this from? Not 1880 but 1780 and before. Who were the makers? The Klotz family? The elder Neuners? Who?

I would venture to say and guess this. I have an old bass possibly from this period that most believe is English but according to one professional (I shouldn't really say expert) thinks it may have been made in Mittenwald for the English market. He mentioned that the Tarr basses were made this way as well. Maybe in the white and finished off there. I pointed out the English style 3-string scroll and asked "this is German??" He replied, "they will make what you ask for!"

We know already that the later Hawkes Basses from about 1890 were contracted to Germany as well as some earlier Basses sold by Tarr (probably not all of the Tarr Basses are German). We also know that England and Germany were not only trading partners but partners in War as they joined the British troops fighting the settlers here in America that were aided by the French. These would be the Prussians I think.

In the Violin market, the English makers from the latter 1700s on thru the mid 1800s had to compete with cheaper imports of 'fiddles' coming from both Germany and France alike. We also know that model wise, the English favored the Stainer and Tirol patterns over the newer introduced Italians of which Amati was the first followed by Strad.

I have seen many 'attributed' English Basses that looked very German in design but English in flavor as well. This I guess would be either an English made German model or a German made English model? How can we tell them apart if for the most part, they are mixed in flavor?

Well, anyway my theory is this on the 'missing basses'. For one, the Germans like their homegrown original old basses. Two, playing a local bass saves them money from buying one imported from England or Italy as these are more expensive in the world market as well. As we see many many Italian & English Basses filling the Orchestras in USA and around the world the Central European Orchestras at least in part (as they too have been spotted with 'some' Italian & English basses) seem content with their own German basses.

If this Big Bass of mine is of German birth (and it was cut down a bit well over a century ago as well) then it may help to shed some light on this mystery. Mittenwald, even going back 250 years ago were 'contractors' as well as makers of their own brand. We know of mainly the 'brands' of Basses we see here that were made for the most part in the 20th century and shipped in to be labeled by the importer. It's just we havent put 2 & 2 together to see that this is and was not a new idea. It was going on for over a century before, just mainly unnoticed.

I guess with this economic and cultural favored home grown Basses the same could be said for the old Viennese as well. I have personally only seen one full sized Thir Bass in my life over here.

So, the question remains, where are all the really OLD (pre 1850) really BIG (4/4 & 5/4) German Basses from the Mittenwald School?

My next question would be when did they start making basses of this full size regularly in Germany or specifically in Mittenwald.

Funny thing, looking at my big Bass at the ISB, a German says Klotz school and the same day an Italian says Gagliano School. The English for the most part say Central or Northern England while a few have mentioned a maker or two in London. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Do they see just what the want to see or are their eyes just biased subconsciously?
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Old 07-05-2009, 07:37 PM
Jeff Campbell Jeff Campbell is offline
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Default Another mystery bass (Mittenwald/English)?

Hi Ken,

I played your mystery bass several times at the ISB - what an amazing sound!
I live in Rochester, NY and know Paul and Jesse at CSC. I play in the RPO and am on the faculty at the Eastman school. I too had a mystery bass at the ISB. It's a 5/4 instrument that I've always thought of as German. I showed it to a well known luthier and as I was getting it out of the case, another shop owner came by and said that he had a customer who had a very big bass JUST like mine and that it had a label by E. Withers. The first luthier then pulled from his collection a bass JUST like mine that he attributed to James Brown. Within a few minutes I went from having never seen another bass like mine to knowing of three.

When I got home, I did some homework and got in touch with the Contrabass Shoppe and sent a photo of my bass. They told my is was probably of Mittenwald origins perhaps made by Neuner, Hornsteiner, or Seitz. I did more home work and found a bassist who has a bass from 1827 by Seitz as shown in the photo. The lower portions of the C bouts are similar to those on your mystery bass Ken.

My bass has very large dimensions as listed below:

Back length 46 5/8"
upper bout – 22"
middle bout - 16"
lower bouts - 28 3/4"

Depth of lower ribs - 8 1/4"

Body Stop – 23 7/8"

String length 43"

I'll attach a few photos in my next post. I guess my question is - what kind of bass is this? I've heard both Mittenwald and English. Photos to follow...
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  #11  
Old 07-05-2009, 08:34 PM
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Cool humm

Interesting stuff here. All of the English dealers after looking at pics of my big bass said it was English. The first time I saw the bass and examined it in my office I was getting brain flashes in my head.. German.. no, English.. no.. German.. no, English.. over and over again as I looked it over.

I too have seen some other Basses 'on-line' that have sold as English but looked a bit German as well. What are they really? Well, let's look at a few things here first..

Oh, and before I begin on the E.Withers comment, I was told by one English player at the ISB that he too has seen basses like mine. Two of them and they are labeled and or attributed to R. or W. Davis! The successor to the Davis shop was none other than Edward Withers I.

Ok, here is a list of features on these basses that could be considered German;
..a black center string running the full length of the back.
..the top purfled but the back unpurfled.
..the back bending gradually from the upper corner block to the neck block.
..the fine grain top wood and fine even flamed back wood
Features that would also be on these German basses would be;
..a full 3/4, 4/4 or 5/4 size often with lower rounded corners aka busseto.
..a scroll made to fit 4-strings as 3 was rare but sometimes used with the lower 3 only for support.
..a varnish that is usually spirit based and the wear on it 'chippy' rather than 'rub-type' fading wear.
..the inner linings led 'into' the corner blocks rather than just flush fit.

On the English Basses, here are some similar features with some differences we find on them;
..the black center back strip if present can be original or added as a later repair. If original it could have been a contracted bass 'in the white' from Mittenwald, maybe?
..The Top purfled and the back not purfled BUT black lines painted in its place (visual on my bass).
..the bend up at the neck area quite steep and not gradual as mine has but does start at the corner block and bends drastically the last 1/3rd of the way.
..wood grade can be domestic or imported as England did trade with Germany so species of wood is no guarantee of origin of bass (in my opinion).
.. a full 3/4, 4/4 or even 5/4 in size. Tops ranging from 44" to 46" to 48".
.. a shorter scroll made to fit only 3-strings with no vision or extra space to fit 4 tuners. The reason why the 4 tuners on many old English Basses are so close together.
.. a varnish that seems stronger than others of the same era that is often oil based but after 2 centuries of repairs we see a lot of spirit added over it often showing the layers.
..inner linings are up to the block and not inlet into the corners with the exception of some English basses where the linings are let in only within the c-bout on the inside of the block and not from outer edge to the bouts.

I know this is a lot of reading but work is work. Did I mention cross bars on the back? The Germans would typically have 4. One center, one lower and two upper. This Bass of mine had twin lower bars but thin like a cello bass bar at maybe 1/2" wide an inch apart like an old Gamba might have. A center and one upper look original on the scars as well but the secondary scars look to maybe have 4 bars. Currently it has a 3-pc X-brace that looks over 100 years old.

My Scroll was a 3-string and the TP was as well but doesn't look to be the original TP. Maybe was put on when the X-brace was. My Bassbar is thin, shallow and short. Looks to be made to support only 3 gut strings. The Top however is strong with no sinkage ever in its past, a healthy arch and some extremely fine grain spruce as well. It currently has a 170mm wide bridge as the Bar is inset a bit. The upper inner F-Eye measurement is about 190mm. This is a BIG bass.

Jeff, did we personally meet at the Show? Did I see your Bass? I don't recall either.

Anyway, on this mystery hunt one theory may be that some of the English Basses that look German may be a bit of both. Made in Mittenwald and finished in England or made in England and repaired or modified in Germany.

My Big bass has been cut and not just up at the Block like recently done. It looks like the outer bouts were cut-trimmed in a bit and maybe even shortened a bit at the lower block around the Bouts as well. The Re-curve is gone in all of these areas and only in the upper bout near the block and the Corners somewhat.

The outline that we see now on it was actually more squat looking and less roundish at the upper and lower bouts as the purfling is not there on these suspected cut areas of the bouts but is there at the bottom and corners but not so complete. The original edges may have been re-used in areas as well. The upper portion of the bass near the neck looks original for the most part. This Bass had been worked on by many people in the past. I would say that the last was about 80-100 years ago or so when converted to 4-string not including the most recent restoration. This Bass even had a C-extension at one time as well but was out of repair for most on the 20th century.
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  #12  
Old 07-05-2009, 08:37 PM
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Question Jeff?

Can I see a close up pic of the Neck-block area under the Top, the Ribs and the Scroll (all sides with tuners). Thx..
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Old 07-05-2009, 09:02 PM
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Default Big bass photos

Hi Ken,

Here are some photos:
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Old 07-05-2009, 09:07 PM
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Cool humm

Well Jeff, aside from both basses you show being Gamba shaped I don't see much in common between them.

Better pics of both might help but I need to see Ribs, scrolls and Neck/block area as well.
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Old 07-05-2009, 10:23 PM
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Am having trouble loading photos. Here's one of the side of the bass.
I'm not suggesting that our two basses are the same... I just got
very curious about your mystery bass and the idea of the large Mittenwald basses. More to come when I can figure out the picture problem.
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Old 07-05-2009, 10:40 PM
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Here's another photo of the ribs, neck joint. Yes we met at the convention but did not speak for long. You were swamped. I did not show you my bass, though I wish I would have. It has a huge, deep organ like sound. Very satisfying to play. I think this is a Mittenwald bass - never thought it anything else until I met the two other people at the convention who said their basses like mine were English.
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Old 07-05-2009, 10:42 PM
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Cool well..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Campbell View Post
Am having trouble loading photos. Here's one of the side of the bass.
I'm not suggesting that our two basses are the same... I just got
very curious about your mystery bass and the idea of the large Mittenwald basses. More to come when I can figure out the picture problem.
What I meant was that the two you posted are different. That's all. The first one does look like a Seitz I saw a few years ago on a German website.

The Gears on your bass are nearly identical to the ones put on mine after it was converted to a 4-string. I shipped them to NY and trying to get them back now just to have. The plates on your I have seen pictured before on a few German Basses. One had the same exact gears as well.
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Old 07-05-2009, 11:07 PM
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Thumbs up nice bass..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Campbell View Post
Here's another photo of the ribs, neck joint. Yes we met at the convention but did not speak for long. You were swamped. I did not show you my bass, though I wish I would have. It has a huge, deep organ like sound. Very satisfying to play. I think this is a Mittenwald bass - never thought it anything else until I met the two other people at the convention who said their basses like mine were English.
I don't know what it is but most of the older English Gamba shaped Basses I have seen had broader shoulders and not sloped like your. I don't see a Seitz connection but maybe one of the Neuner's if it's Mittenwald. Are the Shoulders original or have they been cut?

I would have loved to see and play this Bass. Most big basses have less than friendly shoulders to match. Your Bass looks like it's easy to get up into thumb position without much stretch.
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:26 PM
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The funny thing is that the person whose bass is labled Withers says his bass is larger than mine so I assume if made by the same person that mine was cut down. The front is perfled the back is not. There is a hint of a black line down the center of the back but it almost looks painted on and it doesn't run all the way down. There was some pretty major damage to the back of the neck joint at some point. I'll post a few more pics of this and the inside of the bass.
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Old 07-06-2009, 10:26 PM
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Sorry for the multiple posts. These all show the details of the constructive elements of the bass. It's clear from the photo of the scroll that this bass has always been a four stringer. The bass has five braces, one large one in the middle and two in the upper and two in the lower. Also, you can see the black strip down the back is faint.
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