Poor, Old, Panormo...?

[Vesa Huhtala]

Hello all!
This bass has been waiting couple of years in my shop, needing a total restoration.
Known history: Years played classical music, at last two different periods. 30+ years on attic due to neck damage. "Restored" in playing condition for a dance band tens of years. Then unused many years. Throughout its known history claimed to be Italian. At the time when this claim was began, it must be remembered that after the Second World War some bassist of Finnish dance orchestra did not have much knowledge about the current appreciation of the classical Italian bass.
Wood used is beautiful, e.g very nicely flamed maple. Tuners are both etched and hand carved (not sure if original tough).
Honestly old, there are five different repair styles for deck crack repairs. According to my "research", I have concluded the following: First classical period has left bow strikes over a wide area, that being spot varnished. Neck joint (dovetail) got loosen but remained somewhat secure and playable. New bow strikes over new area, unvarnished. Bridge has had several placements horizontally. Maybe left or sold in Finland as it was. Then some serious neck joint and fingerboard damage occurred and bass wreck was doomed to attic. Then it was made playable, huge blocks glued to secure joint - and nailed... keeping back cracks open in wintertime. When installing new fingerboard last repairer installed... beware Ken... truss rod! (I took it off immediately, no affect to anything). Surface of the bass is something between truck splash flap and shotgun target. Repaires have used for retouching the only brown that they had straight on plain wood, so I think it has to be totally revarnished. It will definitely need to be opened to remove unorthodox repairs and secure the old ones. And maybe some half edging is needed. Even in this condition, with old and strange strings (not spiros) the sound is promising and has some "deep, old wisdom".

So, I am very grateful for any possible information, although they would prove my assumptions wrong.


Aand, Some measurements

Total height: 71,85inch/182,5cm
Length of deck(from bottom to neck heel):43,70inch/111,0cm
Length of back: 44,70inch/113,5 cm
String length: 42,50inch/108,0cm
Upper bout: 20,90inch/53,0cm
Waist: 15,40inch/39,0cm
Lower bout: 26inch/66,0cm
F-hole length 9,25inch/23,5cm
Ribs 7,70inc/19,5cm, from waist down

[Ken Smith]

1000% German Saxon school early 20th century or late 19th at the earliest. Nothing here is English or Italian or old. Sorry.. Dovetail neck was the first clue before pictures. After pictures, "I'm all in" with my estimate.

[Vesa Huhtala]

Hello and thanks for your direct information!

I have to dive into my archives to compare this bass to some Joseph Rubners bass I had to repair over ten years ago. (new neck craft and block). Joseph Rubner is the only one german I know who has made round back and violin corner basses in Markneukirchen.

I'll be back.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Vesa Huhtala

Hello and thanks for your direct information!

I have to dive into my archives to compare this bass to some Joseph Rubners bass I had to repair over ten years ago. (new neck craft and block). Joseph Rubner is the only one german I know who has made round back and violin corner basses in Markneukirchen.

I'll be back.

Rubner is different usually. Possibly Lang or Wilfer. Saxon and Shoenbach basses can be made by the same shops in whole or in part. There are other bass makers in the area that period but the back design is not Rubner, Lang or Wilfer. Also, the chippy varnish is cheap factory work. The angled round back is nice as are the gears.

[Vesa Huhtala]

Sorry, I didn’t suppose the bass being any of you mentioned, I apologize my imprecise impression. So, I have had several Rubners, (Joseph and mostly Otto) and couple of Wilfers (Emmanuel) in my shop, I know them. What I meant was to check my archives, cause I collected a lot of information to be sure of one claimed to be Joseph’s made, as labelled (It was). The method I have used is that I collect pictures of basses from certain area, scale then same size as bass inspected and use (photoshop) layers on each others, varying opaque to see if they are same form. Method has been good for bodies, scrolls, and f-holes, both form and placement. In a fact I used the method with this bass in question too and noticed it’s form somewhat similar to panormo(not any exact though). Sorry for pictures taken too close (fisheye effect) with phone so they look more “Germanish”. Upper bouts are not as sloped as e.g. Rubners and have “sharper shoulders” situated where the round backs fold is. The fold is supported inside by support bar and both are horizontally curved. I haven’t seen such in German round back basses. But there are always first times…
About varnish has to be remembered that being on Finnish attic means temperatures between 86°F and -22°F and humidity between 20% to 90%, thirty+ years…
About Rubner basses, I don’t know any other basses that has that about 3x4 inches size thickening on back under sound post, (already Joseph did have it). Joseph had violin corners and edges over ribs and Otto made gamba styled without those edges, similar to former Musimas and some USSR-based basses.
And I have forgotten to thank KSB: I have used your site years as a reference when dealing with my clients and insurance companies.
I’ve seen so many times disappointment in my clients’ faces when I had to announce that their worn out but intact inside italian bass is actually Hungarian hoax. Maybe it is my turn…

Anyway, I will continue researching, Thank you very much for your patience.