Guitar and Pear-Shaped

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

What you say may be true. I guess I think there are relatively so few cornerless basses compared with regular basses that it's hard to make generalisations really meaningful, as there are still so many other variables. But we can try.

If cornerless basses sound so fine, generally, why then are they so outnumbered by regular ones?

(... and I was actually asking the other Ken about his rib depth on the build photo)

Yes, I know it was the other Ken but thought it valuable to once again throw in my two cents regardless..lol

Why so few? Well, tradition for one I would guess and pride maybe as well on the other hand. Guitar makers were not thought of as highly as Violin makers so that might be a mental block on their Cornerless beasts. Also, ever try lifting one around the stage or moving a few feet over from the player next to you? Where the heck do you grab the thing? I have a hard time moving it around but the sound makes up for it. Also, I can't lean it on the chair next to me like I do my other Basses. Should I glue a Block to the outside of the Ribs like a Horizontal 'bumper' to lift, carry and lean the Bass? This might be something to help with this problem I think as well as some Bumpers on the Upper and Lower Bouts to lay it down.

Cornerless Viol/Violin Family instruments have been made in Italy for hundreds of years but for some reason, they never change tradition. Even the Chanot's and others in France and England (19th century) made some cornerless Violins as well as others elsewhere. The Spaniards adopting the Guitar Form as their main style of making Basses after the Spanish Guitar itself took hold world wide. They are forgetting one thing here in Spain though! It's an Italian thing Bass-wise and not Spanish no matter how well 'borrowed' or adapted..

[Ken McKay]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

How wide are those bottom ribs Ken? they look DEEEEP!



When I made my purfling I resolved to try a flexible glue like PVA next time as the hide glue was just too brittle.

They are almost 10 inches at the bottom block, but the ribs taper to 8.5 at the upper bout and then down to less than 6 at the neck. When I designed the bass, I was thinking full sized bottom with 3/4 string length and playablility. That was before Ken's comments about depth of ribs versus depth of sound. When I get the top glued on I may alter the width, maybe not though.


I am going to glue the strips in separately so the hide glue should not be an issue as that can slip around and conform the the shape.

[Ken McKay]

It is haunting me now......


Now I have to cut those ribs down to a proper size. No big deal I will treat it like a restoration practice project. Shoot I could probably make an instrument out of the cut offs.

[Matthew Tucker]

Well you don't HAVE to cut them down. You'll never know whether your hunch was correct unless you try. I'd think about the look, too, from the side. Take some side-on shots with the top taped on. if you like the tapered look, keep it.

The gofriller in chandlers book has a nice taper from 9" at the saddle to about 7" at the heel, and that's a carved back with no bend. Looks nice and it's a master bass ...

have you done any calculations of the relative volume of the upper and lower bouts compared with another model?

[Ken McKay]

Well, I am working at the hospital for the next few days so that will give me some time to contemplate the issue. I took a look out of the corner of my eye when I entered my shop this morning and it hit me as "too big". And then I got to thinking about moving it around with a stand partner as Ken S. described.

You guys have been a great big help and I really appreciate your interest.The suggestions so far have resulted in making it something I can be satisfied with, so I thank you all for that, including Arnold's pm's. Designing a bass is a lot harder than I thought.

So until the weekend, I let it sit.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Should I glue a Block to the outside of the Ribs like a Horizontal 'bumper' to lift, carry and lean the Bass? This might be something to help with this problem I think as well as some Bumpers on the Upper and Lower Bouts to lay it down.

maybe velcro can be called upon, again, to perform modern miracles ...

[Brian Gencarelli]

Ken McKay,

Just looked at some of your progress pics... looking good! I am getting inspired to give it a whirl myself... I will finally have a big project out of the workshop soon. (Dining room set restoration for my wife... about 8 months work so far.)

Once I have some room, I may be sending you a PM.

Carve on,
Brian

[Ken McKay]

Thanks Brian, I have been working on it here and there. I have the back planed to thickness now and the top arching pretty much refined the way I want it. I have the purfling and am ready to cut the grooves. The corpus is off the false back platform now because I glued on a "false top" to hold the rib shape while I glue on the top when it is ready. I will show some pics of that soon.

I will be glad to help anyway I can.

[David Powell]

I've just caught up on your progress and it is looking really fantastic to me. I'd give the current rib depth a whirl. After all, taking off is easier than putting it back on, and with the long taper like that it is plausible that it will have the right sound. I don't know if there is a formula for rib depth. This fellow is building different shaped cornerless basses: http://www.allbasse.com/

His design, which is sort of a rounded Savart shape, has a rather radical rib taper from bottom to top. I don't know what the measurements are, but I think it looked similar to what you currently have going.

I really like the way your barrel arching shaped up. It's pretty obvious the you have a good instinct as a builder.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

David, I tried to enter the site shown above and my anti-virus program reported an intrusion alert, some type of worm/virus.

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

David, I tried to enter the site shown above and my anti-virus program reported an intrusion alert, some type of worm/virus.

Gee I hope not. It is a flash site of the bass maker Antoine Leducq. Try this one. This is more the entry page: http://www.allbasse.com/

I don't get the alerts, but then I'm on a Mac and I haven't run anti-virus in a long time. Hmmm.

[Mike Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

David, I tried to enter the site shown above and my anti-virus program reported an intrusion alert, some type of worm/virus.

Looks OK to me, is it only when you select a link? Seems that it pop ups in a new window, which I could say your AV program may see that as something potentially unwanted.

[Tim Bishop]

Originally Posted by David Powell

Gee I hope not. It is a flash site of the bass maker Antoine Leducq. Try this one. This is more the entry page: http://www.allbasse.com/

I don't get the alerts, but then I'm on a Mac and I haven't run anti-virus in a long time. Hmmm.

OK here. Sounds like AV protection to me.

[paulunger]

Here are some pics of my guitar shaped Baldontoni, 1820.
http://www.myfamily.com/Photos/ViewP...px?iid=3174660

[Anselm Hauke]

paul,
thanks for posting
the link in your post requires a password, i can see no pics.

[Ken Smith]

Has any one ever seen Ermanno Ferrari with his Cornerless Bass or have some pictures to share with us? I have been told in a copy of a letter that he bought a Bass by Spanish maker J.Guillami from Gary Karr some years ago.

All I have found so far on the web is this; http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/cd/ferrari/ferrari.html

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Mike Pecanic

ok,ok, so there is no corner blocks? Just the top and bottom?

Mike, I am so sorry. You posted that about 3 years ago while I was typing up my post on page one/1 of this thread about the same time. In reading back over it just now I noticed that you were never replied to. I don't think anyone intended to ignore you at all. It's just that I missed it and the subject direction was changed when they started talking here about making a new bass.

Yes, just top and bottom blocks to answer your question. No corner blocks at all. Also, the ribs are made from 2 pieces usually, one on each side.

I have since acquired a quasi-cornerless bass that is in restoration. The Ribs are 2 pieces but the top and back has corners but not like we are used to seeing. They hook a bit downwards instead of coming to an evenly shaped blunt corner. There are small scalloped blocks 'outside' on the ribs supporting the corners. A total of 8 of these mini scalloped blocks. This bass is nicknamed 'Scallopini'.

This bass does not look in shape or outline like the typical guitar-shaped double bass. It looks kind of normal for a handmade Italian bass. It has a round-back with an upper angle break and sloped shoulders. The back I think is Walnut, Italian/European and with some flame cut on the slab, not quartered. The ribs seem un-figured but might be Italian walnut as well.

[Ken Smith]

Today after another brief discussion with Arnold who is restoring the 'ex-Riccardi bass' I have decided to remove the Storioni attribution from the listing and change it officially to "Italian Guitar Model Bass, Italy, 18th Century".

When I first bought the Bass a well known historian that knew the Bass said it was not Storioni or even Cremona and most likely 19th century. When two prominent Bass Luthiers looked inside the bass their estimates were approximately mid-18th century, give or take a few decades.

Now that the Bass is opened up and getting worked on the 1750 or so estimate looks more likely than anything near the 19th century. Who actually made it? I don't really know, I wasn't there! Perhaps in the future something will come along and tell us more. I did see a slightly similar Scroll/pegbox on another Italian Bass but that had I think a replaced Back and was not cornerless. The FFs were different as well but, the Scroll was close and maybe not a match for the Bass it was on.

When I first heard of this Bass for sale about a year or two before getting it I was told it was a Rogeri. When I bought it the name was changed back to Storioni which it had been called before it was a Rogeri. Perhaps the Bass going to market was the reason for all the famous name calling.

This by no means in itself lessens the greatness of this Double Bass but it does relieve me in the 'burden of proof' if it were to be sold. Regardless, it will not change the asking price either!

[Ken McKay]

Chet atkins playing guitar in front of a cornerless player http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-c66SJPuUI

And if you look close you can see Ken Smith in the background next to to girl with the poodle dress.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Ken McKay

Chet atkins playing guitar in front of a cornerless player http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-c66SJPuUI

And if you look close you can see Ken Smith in the background next to to girl with the poodle dress.

Wow, who is that guy playing the Cornerless bass and where is that thing now. That bass is way way out of his league..

It looks a bit like my bass but I doubt that it is. I think..

Me next to a girl when I was 2 or 3 years old?