Best mini cardioid condenser for DB

[Bob Branstetter]

I've been using an AMT S25B with a tailpiece mount for a couple of years now and have no complaints with this setup. I currently mix it with a Fishman Full Circle and usually have a mix of roughly 50-50 or maybe 60-40 (AMT to FC). By using this mix I can get plenty of volume for most jobs out of my Series III Coda and still sound "acoustic". On quiet jobs, I sometimes just use the mic alone. I've never had a problem picking up drums or other instruments with the AMT. I position the mic right on the center seam just below the end of the fingerboard. I use a pair of women's hair ties attached to the bridge legs to center the goose-neck and minimize movement of the mic head. With this setup, I have no problem keeping the mic positioned 1/8" or closer to the top. I did not like the AMT stock mounting system that clamps to the bouts. With that setup, you have to attach it for the job and then unattach it when you put on your case. A real pain! I designed the tailpiece mount so that the cord is detachable, but I leave the mic on my bass at all times. I keep the black box (preamp) attached to the top of my Coda with Velcro. I once did an A-B in a recording studio against a vintage Neumann U67. The Neumann did sound better, but the (very experienced) engineer said he thought that I could take the AMT into any studio in the country and wouldn't have to apologize for it.

[Jonas Lohse]

Audix ADX20i. The regular model hasa cardoid pattern, but I prefer the hypercardoid model, which is less prone to feedback.
(Link to pic)

[David Powell]

Well, this thread didn't take off probably because I first posted it in the wrong place and then I reposted it and it said moved, and well, it was confusing I think. So after several weeks, and probably the day before or maybe even the hour before Bob Branstetter posted about the AMT, I ordered a mini-condenser off of the list after I found a supplier. But don't let that stop anyone from posting about any mic on or off the list. I will post again about the mic I ordered as soon as the midget arrives, hopefully in a few days. Thanks Bob and Jonas for contributing. Any mini-condenser favorites that you have and care to talk about, I am all ears....

[Eric Hochberg]

Just played a gig with Patricia Barber at the Green Mill in Chicago and the club has recently purchased one of these as a "house" bass mic. While I couldn't hear it from the bandstand (it was going solely through the PA mains and I was also using a pickup and amp) the very talented soundman told me he is happy with it.

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg

Just played a gig with Patricia Barber at the Green Mill in Chicago and the club has recently purchased one of these as a "house" bass mic. While I couldn't hear it from the bandstand (it was going solely through the PA mains and I was also using a pickup and amp) the very talented soundman told me he is happy with it.

I posted this and have since discovered that the mic I thought was a Audio Technica Pro 35 is actually an AT ATM35, discontinued model.

Sorry for the error.

[Corey DiMario]

In live settings I use an audio technica 831b. I think it's intended for acoustic guitars, but works well for my purposes. I picked it up a while back without doing much research. I needed a small mic and that's what the kid at guitar center handed me... lol. I send it directly to the front of house and keep it out of the monitors. For my onstage sound I run a pickup (either an underwood, a schertler stat-b or a Rev solo 2 (depending on the bass I am playing) through an AI new yorker. I also send a line out of the amp to the front of house so the engineer can blend the two signals. Works pretty well. I've heard some board recordings from festivals and liked the combination.

The search for the elusive live sound is a hard one. there are so many variables that once I come up with something that works, gear wise, I don't change it. That way I learn it's nuances and can better tweak it in different rooms and settings.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I played Bob Branstetter's bass at a jam session last weekend and thought the sound was very nice. Due to the proximity to the drummer's ride cymbal the mix was less mike and more FC, but he had a really warm, natural tone with plenty of wood and air. The tailpiece mount for the AMT is an install it and forget about it thing. If I had an amp that would take it, and the cash, I would spring for it myself.

[David Powell]

OK, I've had this thing long enough now to comment and I've used it in the worst room (acoustically) that I normally gig in as well as in a few rehearsal situations. I bit the bullet, went the distance, maxed it out as they say, and forked over for the DPA 4021 and it's fancy little shock mount bracket. The worst thing is that I have no direct basis for comparison, except something like a dynamic mic stuck behind the TP or perhaps one of my cheap condensers that needs to be on a boom stand. I almost feel like I should get that Audix, Audio-Technica, or something a lot less expensive to see how much difference in sound there really is so I can confirm what I paid for. I suppose I could A-B it with my MXL 991 on a mic stand just to hear something else, but I am sure these would be worlds apart.

Some of its' "quality" is less tangible and probably not something appreciated on a A-B listening test such as the fine callibration that makes this one of the microphones that is good enough to use for scientific sound measurement purposes (of course when do most players need that?). Then there is the material and quality of construction of the the unit. Even though the wire is very thin, it does not feel flimsy. And the housing has a "heft" for its' size that confirms that it is mostly metal and probably no plastic anywhere in the capsule. And it has better humidity resistance and durability as well as a tolerance for higher sound pressure levels and the nearest to a flat response of anything I've heard. So there might be some quality in the package that is pure durability, and some that is just tighter adherence to performance specifications. The fact that the pre-amp is internal to the housing of such a small capsule would appear to be the main premium feature that separates this from other fine mics like the AMT.

I was looking for a tiny mic I could just plug into a phantom power source and not need an intermediary pre-amp box. I think the DPA is very rare in this respect, if not a bit precious because of it. It really sounds great to my ears. My bass only louder? I don't know if that can be used to describe what comes from a mic. But it is the first time that I felt I was really hearing my instrument amplified well.

Feedback rejection is better than I expected, also. I can stand right in front of my AI combo and at the "just before feedback point", it is just as clean there as behind or off to the side. The worst position for feedback seems to be at about 45 degrees and to one side. On the safe side, I am able to run the channel at about 9:00 o'clock with the master at 12:00 o'clock. If I run the Ampeg 212H cab as extension, a bit out in front of my position, I can use the same gain settings and be much louder and still, no feedback. I am using the notch on the AI, and its' position is room dependent. It is loud enough this way that I don't need to blend in the piezo in most rooms I gig in. I'm thinking a bit of both might actually cut through the mix best so I still have some experimentation to do.

Nothing is perfect of course;- and with the DPA it is a small issue with the very precious mounting gadget. It has a clamp for the afterlength that uses a foam strip sandwich that could be a bit beefier. The foam compresses too easily and the clamp is then subject to slipping. Other than that, the clamp works great and is a pretty finely machined and designed piece of work. One twist loosens the whole mechanism and one twist tightens it. It reminds me of the way the accessories for my Rolleiflex cameras were made;- really hard and precisely machined fine steel. It looks flimsy and under-engineered, but in practice, the metal parts are truly pared down to the minimum structure for a mounting clamp and once it is tightened into place, it is pretty solid. It just needs stiffer foam in the clamp part. I'll probably alter that and put thin cork in place of the foam. This is a bit frustrating because at the price of this mounting rig, DPA should have paid more attention to this. Still, it's the only flaw I could find in an otherwise really nicely made device.

I also want to hear how it records from this close in. Conventional wisdom is that recording is best from some point out in the room, but if close micining can sound good this might be the mic that does it. Live, it sounds so much nicer than a piezo that I will only use the piezo when volume is a big issue. Right now I am just enthralled with the smooth and even response.

[Bob Branstetter]

David - Could you post a photo of the shock mount or a link to a photo. I tried to find one on the net and didn't see anything that looked bass mountable. The specs look good. If it is anything like the AMT, you should experiment locating the mic. What sounds good in your livingroom may not sound good on the job. For me and several others the best sounding spot that produced maximum, usable output was well removed from the ff holes area (at the end of the fingerboard, right on the center seam and almost touching the top). Let us know how it works on jobs with drummers and noise. Since you have an AI Coda, adjusting the mix is pretty easy. The only bad thing is when you have to dial up the piezo, you hear how bad it really sounds compared to the mic.

Are you able to leave the mic on the bass more or less permanently attached? That was my biggest objection to the AMT mic system. After about a half dozen jobs I knew that I had to design something that would eliminate the set up and tearing down on every job. That got old real fast.

[David Powell]

I'll get a photo of it up and how I mount it soon. There's a not so good photo of it here (look in the appications / bass link), but it shows it pointing off toward the f hole and that is not how I am positioning it. The mount allows a good deal of flexibility and swivel and I have it almost dead center just under the bridge with the mount crossing the afterlengths of the A and D strings.

I haven't had time to mess with it yet but there is a separate little wire doo-hickey that has a cork screw at one end and it came with the microphone and was not an accessory extra. Looking at that thing, I think it might be possible to get it up under the Fingerboard extended down toward the bridge. I'm thinking screw the cork screw end into a carefully shaped wine cork, glue (hide glue) the wine cork to the underside of the FB and then I have a mount in that position. The position just under the center of the bridge is working pretty well, but I've seen the position between bridge and fingerboard used by many professionals and I'd like to try that.

It is possible to leave the whole shooting match clamped onto the afterlengths, coil the cord and drop it into the quiver, and pack. The only problem there is that too soft foam that gets compressed and then slides down the strings. I think if I remove the mount after every use, the foam is not such a problem, but it definitely compresses too quickly for leaving it in place. I might replace the foam with cork this afternoon.

[alec derian]

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

I did not like the AMT stock mounting system that clamps to the bouts. With that setup, you have to attach it for the job and then unattach it when you put on your case. A real pain! I designed the tailpiece mount so that the cord is detachable, but I leave the mic on my bass at all times. .

Hi Bob,

My AMT should be arriving in the mail very soon, and I would love to know exactly how you removed it from the standard mounting systems it comes with and perhaps some more about how you attached it to your Double Bass. Is it pretty easy? Maybe this will all be self-evident when I receive the mic. In any case, your experience would be much appreciated.

[Bob Branstetter]

The mount I'm using now is the second design I've done. I made the first one from spruce. It was OK, but I really wanted one that I could adjust the angle of the mic coming out of the tailpiece. My current design was made from a short length of 2" Aluminum angle stock. The mic tube is attached with the same small plastic pipe clamps that are used to attach the jack on Gage Realist pickups. They are available in most any hardware store.

Before you start, keep in mind that this modification will void your AMT warranty. It's a good idea to use the mic a while with the factory clamp so that you can be absolutely sure that you have found the best location for the mic head. In my case that spot was located directly under the end of the fingerboard and on the center seam. I keep the mic less than 1/8" from the surface. While this may seem to be an unlikely place for the mic, it enables me to get a great sound and much more usable volume before getting into feedback. I've found that the area around the ff holes is one of the worst places for the mic as it gets a boomy sound and is more prone to feedback. This may not be the best spot for you, so experiment on jobs since it will always sound great in your living room.

Removing the AMT body clamp from the tube and goose-neck can be a challenge. Thanks to Marty Paglione (the designer of the mic) at AMT, I know that you must heat all of the tiny set screws with an alcohol lamp before removing them. If they are not well heated, the threads may strip when you try to remove them because they are installed with Loctite so they won't vibrate loose. As I remember, there are 3 different size set screws. I had to go to a machine supply shop to find the smallest Allen wrench since it is smaller than any of the "standard" sizes. I can look up the sizes for you if you need to know. Once the set screws are removed, you can slide off the clamp portion. If you aren't real good a soldering small components, having a friend who is good at it will make the job a lot easier. You must cut the cable coming out of the tube housing and install a Switchcraft EN3 plug on the mount if you wish to keep the wiring to the preamp the same as it is stock. Of course you will need a EN3 jack for the cord that you cut off. They are available from several mail order electronic supply houses. You could substitute a Mini XLR plug and jack for the EN3. That will do the same job and are probably be a little more sturdy than the plastic EN3 fittings.

I attached the adaptor to the back side of my tailpiece with cap screws (Allen head). By using an Allen Wrench, I can loosen or tighten the screws (after initial installation) without removing the tailpiece again. I tapped the threads into the tailpiece so that I could partially loosen them to remove the mic mount and then reattach it as many times as I might need in the future. As it turned out, it has been permanently attached to the tailpiece for the last two years.

I'm sure there are other things that I left out, but this should give you a pretty good idea of what my mount is all about. Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions. FWIW, I also wrote about the mount over on the TalkBass forum.

[David Powell]

At a recent rehearsal using the DPA 4021 with the AI Coda, I observed a curious behavior concerning feedback or the lack thereof. I noted earlier that I could run the channel (notch filter on) with the gain at the 9:00 o'clock position and the master at 12:00 without feedback. What I observed at a recent rehearsal (concrete floor) and confirmed at a a gig today (carpeted plywood) is that I can boost the master gain well beyond 12:00 o'clock and still not get feedback while attempting to increase the channel gain beyond the 9:00 o'clock position results in immediate feedback.

This seems odd to me, but in any case, boosting the master now allows me to get very loud with the mic and still no hint of feedback or boomy resonance. Odd, but a welcome discovery. I'm guessing the behavior is the same with other mics as well? Has anyone else experienced this?

[Bob Branstetter]

I've never tried running mine that way since I get plenty of volume with my S25B by leaving the master at "12 O'clock" and I frequently have the input level up around 11. Of course knob positions aren't really a good measure of the actual (db) output. The sensitivity of the input device (mic or pickup) can make all the difference in the world.

The AI Series III Coda manual says (on pg. 3):

"The input level controls the level of the signal at the input stage of the preamp. The master volume controls the output of the preamp (at the input of the power amp). Set the master control at "12 O'clock" and the input level at zero. The input level should then be used to control the overall output of the unit. The two controls are provided to allow independent control of the "house" volume and "stage" volume when the unit is used as a stage monitor with a connection to a house PA."

It would be interesting to see how your system responds without the notch filter on. I would assume that the notch filter would be on the preamp.

[Ken Smith]

I played last Saturday night in a club and was the 3rd gig I used my old 1970s AKG Mic wrapped in foam in the bridge legs. Would one of these new thingys you guys are talking about be better in any way or are they just smaller? I am asking because I am a bit of an old schooler and have not tried anything new other than the Shadow Underwood copy which I also like. I use that usually but in a small club or recording with an expensive English or Italian Bass that the Bridge doesn't want to be altered I have just used the Mic where volume wasn't an issue.

[David Powell]

To Bob B.'s:

Those instructions are why I had not previously tried to go beyond 12:00 on the master. In fact I can't really explain why I finally decided to push it and see what happened, just a sudden impulse I guess. The notch is definitely channel specific so it is applied to the pre-amp gain. The phase reversal function is what it is doing that is possibly the most important. I might call Rick Jones and see if he can explain the behavior. Anyway I'm kind of happy to discover that I can push it up a bit more.

Responding to Ken:

If we are getting better results from smaller mics, it is probably more because we are using them with AI amps. The notch filter and phase reversal features are critical feedback reduction measures that make a real difference. The only thing that is better about a smaller mic is that it can be mounted on the bass closer the wood, very close in fact. This gives the mic a stronger input and the large area of the bass in close proximity helps sheild the mic. Other than that, there is no reason I can think of that a smaller mic should or does work better. If you can get the big one right up on the bass, I would think it would be very similar with an AI amp.

It still feeds back before the piezo!!