Hawkes & Son.. (The Official KSB Hawkes Bass Discussion Thread)

[Eric Hochberg]

Ken, this bass reminds me of a Hawkes a friend of mine was considering a few years ago. I think that bass lived in Kansas City at the time. I remember a broken violin corner repair... Can you tell if that is the original scroll?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg

Ken, this bass reminds me of a Hawkes a friend of mine was considering a few years ago. I think that bass lived in Kansas City at the time. I remember a broken violin corner repair... Can you tell if that is the original scroll?

The Restorer seems to believe it is as well as all the others that have seen it. Still, no guarantee but it does fit the Bass well. It was a 3-string Scroll and was converted a long time ago from the similar but not identical 4th Gear used.

I will try and find out where the Bass was before 2003/4, the completion date of the restoration being 2004.

[Anselm Hauke]

i´ve often seen hawkes´ that were as dark as this one. the most seemed to be overvarnished to me.
ken, do you think the color is original?

edit: and i´ve seen many light brown/golden/red ones, that looked much better imho
edit2: nothing against this bass, sure it´s a great instrument

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Anselm Hauke

i´ve often seen hawkes´ that were as dark as this one. the most seemed to be overvarnished to me.
ken, do you think the color is original?

edit: and i´ve seen many light brown/golden/red ones, that looked much better imho
edit2: nothing against this bass, sure it´s a great instrument

Well, the Varnish on the Scroll looks 100% original. If the Scroll matches the Bass which most believe it does, then the color was dark to begin with. I was told that the Varnish was a mess already on the Bass when it reached the Restorer. He did his best to match it back up. I don't know how much of the Bass has original Varnish or if any of it is aside from the Scroll.

On the origin, we do not know where these were made or if they were made in different German shops over the years. The guesses of both Rubner and Hornsteiner could both be correct if the demand was there of if changes were made at different time periods. If I had to choose between these two sources providing they were correct then I would go with the Hornsteiner as that's what it resembles most as far as the varnish on the Scroll and the FFs. The Model is totally English with a mixture or Panormo which includes Maggini with the Flat Back. It is possible that several different shops produced these Basses over time using the patterns and Specs (inside and out) provided by Hawkes of London, hence the English look!

[Ken Smith]

On the UK Gallery Strings website they talk about the Basses in order they were produced with the French being first and then the Flatback German model with the Panormo being last to come. The Contrabass website seperately lists the French model history from the other 3 models. On one Bass they have in the Archives which is a Flatback Professor model they make mention of the original label in the Bass "The instrument bears it is original Hawkes & Son label from Denmark Street, Piccadilly Circus, London dated 1904, No 3160."

Does this imply that it was made in London or just the company's address that imported and sold them?

Gallery Strings also shows a Professor model that claims it was actually made in London ("one that was actually made in London c1910"), and not Germany (Saxony) where the Flatbacks were reportedly made.

So, just more confusion I think and the reason for starting this thread to begin with. So many Basses produced but with practically no traceable history to read about in the Violin books other than a few mentions here and there.

[Ken Smith]

Notice that all the Concert models (unless since altered) have French Gears on them while only the Panormo has English Baker style Gears. Maybe the French Gears most likely purchased as a high end alternative to the Bakers (and better than the German Gears available or for marketing or both) have added to the confusion that some of these 'Panormo/Concert/Maggini/Fendt-like/non-French models' might have been made in France. Just keep in mind with this that Gears can be bought and put on anything so French Gears alone does not constitute French made. This goes as well for Labels!

[Ken Smith]

This week I think I saw my first actual French made Hawkes in the Panormo model. I have seen pics and heard claims but never had one in my hands. This looked similar to the English model but with French Gears. The inside Linings are wider inside which is typical of the French. This Bass did not have outer linings/moldings like the German models have. The other Frenchies were made earlier and were Jacquet style basses with the older Riviere & Hawkes firm which dissolved in 1889. So, if you see and claims with that label after that date, it's a fraud. This Bass that I saw and played had been refinished in recent years so I wasn't able to look at the French Varnish. Still, it was a nice Bass. It had the Purfled 'F' under the upper back Button.

I know I have doubted this in the past but after seeing one in person and discussing this exact Bass with Arnold I am convinced that some of the Panormo shaped models were made in France. Most likely under contract with the Hawkes patterns and specs. The internal work I imagine would tend to more or less emulate the Shop or country of origin. I would estimate the dates to be from the 1890's and on into the early 20th century. I don't know anything more than that at this time.