The Great English Double Basses

[Ken Smith]

In July of 2005 I started a thread on TalkBass about the English School of Basses. By November or 2006, about 16 months later is was just short of 200 posts. While trying to avoid copying all the data here, I do want to re-cap the basics of what was discussed and learned. Still, I wish to continue this discussion of the English Bass which spanned about 150 years between the 18th and 19th centuries. Still, in the 20th – 21st centuries we see Basses being made in England.

[Ken Smith]

I started this thread to bring to light the Great English Basses Known and Unknown. I would like to keep the content to Basses before 1900 but if something interesting pops up throw it in and see what shakes.

I have owned 4 English Basses thus far with 3 of them still in my possession. I have also owned 4 Italian Basses in the past (two now) and I must say that my 4 English Basses match or surpass my 4 Italians.

I have a Bass that I acquired in 2005 and sold in 2006 that I wanted to ID. How many people here have seen English Basses Circa 1800 with 3-piece tops. The center piece is about 10" wide. The lower bout is 27.25" across. This is the first old English Bass I have seen with a 3-piece top. The ff holes are not centered evenly at all from the neck. One is 3/6" lower than the other. The nicks are sharp 'Diamond' like cuts that are NOT off-set but rather even across facing each other. The Scroll is another Great work of art like the Gilkes but completely different. Oh, and the Varnish is a beautiful Golden Brown Oil typical of Dodd and other English makers of that period. This is the Bass here; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...d/DoddBass.htm

On a British Appraisal of the Dodd, it is mentions that it was used in the London Symphony (LSO), Royal Philarmonic (RPO) and the BBC Orchestra. The London Orchestras are known for their formidable sounding Bass section. My Dodd it the deepest most powerful Bass I have ever heard or played. Can you imagine a complete section of basses like this? That could be scary!

These are the other English Basses I have currently; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...GilkesBass.htm
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double.../Hart/Hart.htm
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/name_that_bass2.htm

[Ken Smith]

Many Basses from the Early English are difficult to Identify. Some of them are in or near their original state as well and not as desirable to play as the more playable Fendts and Panormos with accessible neck block/shoulder cuts. English Basses made before Dragonetti's popularity were often Cello shaped type shoulders. Bernhard Simon Fendt II was born in 1800/1. His Father as well as J.F. Lott I, made their Basses with bigger shoulders as it was acceptable back then. Most of these 'sexier' shouldered English Basses are after 1800. Many of the older ones as well have been cut and reshaped.

Edit (7/13/07): Makers such as Panormo, Kennedy, B.S.Fendt I & II, *J.F.Lott I, W.Gilkes and J.Hart as well as a few others DID slope the broad Shoulders at the top with a steep angle bend on their Basses. This was not a later modification but rather original features of these great English Basses (*J.F. Lott II aka 'Jack' Lott was mainly a Violin maker as is only known to have made one (1) single Bass in his time). Panormo however is the only one known to have made carved Round Backs while all the others mentioned specialized in making Flat Back Basses. My Samuel Gilkes Bass although a carved Round Back was made in Cello form originally and without an Angle Break at the top.

I have shown the Dodd to a few of my contacts in the field as well as 5 different shops in the UK that are well versed in old English Basses. Betts was the first Name it carried but that was mainly due to the Stamp on the Back which can't be read and does not look at all like the Stamp that Betts used. One London Dealer is Positive it is a Dodd Shop Bass. That would then possibly point to Fendt or Lott Seniors, both of them. Of course both of their sons were considered slightly better makers as far as the Violins go but the 'Dads' were no slouches either. Dodd is reported to have done all of the Varnishing himself. The Varnish is beautiful regardless of who mixed or applied it.

[Ken Smith]

Many Dodd and Forster Basses have Square corners. There are Linings are on some of the Fendts but these are usually later models after 1830. The Fendts took over the Betts Shop after his death in 1823. None of my English Basses have linings. Earlier Fendt I Basses were out of the Dodd (period 1798-1809) or Betts shop (1809-1823). I would imagine it was up to the Shop Master how things should be made and not the shop builder.

I do not find it odd at all that this Dodd Bass has no linings. I believe the makers involved in question did not use linings in their earlier period. The fact that this Bass was made without lining points more to the earlier period than the later of this school. Joseph Hill is one of the oldest known English makers to use outside linings but not on every Bass. The English were the greatest Copyists of mainly the Italian School. The combination of Linings and squared corners are one of the few English traits exclusive to them. Overlooked also is also their beautiful Gold Varnish.

Please guys, post pics like you did on TB of other English Basses too. I did not re-start this to discuss only my Basses. I am more than happy to do so but I don't wanna make it one sided......I don't care if you pull a Bass from some other website for discussion purposes. Lets have some fun and interesting conversation as we Journey into the makers of the Great English Basses.

[Ken Smith]

I played a beautiful Forster (attributed) 7/8 Cello model Bass last year at Biase's in NYC with the typical Square corners and rich brown Forster Varnish. The Bass is in near mint condition. Last month I looked closely at it again and noticed that the Purfling is scratched in lines and painted in.

When my Mystery Bass was first looked over by Biase in NY, he saw a few spots on the back where there were painted Purfling lines. Paul said in a flash during the ID of the Bass, "English Ink" in response to the painted lines. In recent reading of the 18th century makers, it was noted that quite a few either used painted purfling or did so on their lower cost models in place of real Purfling. I have seen Violins like this as well from the early English.

I have also seen German and Italian Basses without purfling and scratched or painted lines in it's place if anything at all.

There is no set rule or period of Basses without purfling in England but b4 1800 is more common than after 1850.

Now my Gilkes has Purfling "to die for". The only purfling job I have ever seen to match it was on a 1690s Strad Violin I saw awhile ago in NYC. It was the regular 3-layer and inlaid to the 'tips' just like the Gilkes. The Gilkes however is 7-layers of thin strips glued together, 4 black and 3 white lines. It is written that S.Gilkes Inlaid Purfling like Strad did. After seeing the Strad and Owning the Gilkes, I can see first hand why.

The English made ALL Qualities of String instruments. Some have fooled the best experts into thinking they were the real Classic Italians and some were made for the trade without purfling or blocks and even with integral Bassbars. To survive in the early 19th century, they had to keep up with the cheaper grade German and French instruments coming into the country and make some of their own.

[Ken Smith]

If you look at old Basses with cracks, you will see that the Crack either runs straight up under the purfling, thru the purfling or slightly sideways if the Purfling deflects the crack slightly off track and to the sides and around it. Tension and/or shrinkage has caused the Crack and nothing will stop it. Just look at Bass Bar Cracks. The Bass Bar is 1000 x more massive than Purfling yet Basses crack right under and thru the Bar all the time.

Violins crack all the time. Purfling acts like a tiny 'Damn' in a Flood. It either flows through the Damn if big enough or Flows around it somewhere else.. But the Flood waters come like it or not. Violins are much stronger in relation to Basses. The Purfling is about the same size and inlaid the same depth as on a Bass but the Bass is much bigger. The purfling will have a similar proportioned diminished effect on a Bass as it is in ratio to the size difference to the Violin if at all.

[Jack McFadden]

Hello:
I'm new here, and maybe you'd like to look at my beautiful 1833 William Baker.

cheers,

Jack

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Jack McFadden

Hello:
I'm new here, and maybe you'd like to look at my beautiful 1833 William Baker.

cheers,

Jack

beautiful indeed. You posted this on my English thread on TB and I remember it well. So, you are sending me this bass for being a good guy?

Well, in either case I would love to play it and compare with my Hart and English School basses. My Dodd, Gilkes and 4/4 Gamba are gone so I cant compare them anymore but still, I think 3 can be a party if you show up, no?

I have an early Hawkes roundback here to compare it to as well having Baker keys on it as well as an English Scroll, French Linings, German arching and Italian style bottom Block.. It's got a bit of everything in it.

I am curious to seeing how this stacks up to other fine English Pedigrees like your Baker. Please, make the trip over..

Thanks once again for posting the pics. The more the merrier.

[Anselm Hauke]

Originally Posted by Jack McFadden

...and maybe you'd like to look at my beautiful 1833 William Baker.

cheers,

Jack

YES! Thanks!