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Old 06-22-2007, 06:32 AM
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Arrow The 5-String Double Bass

Hi guys, I am starting this to strike up some discussions about the Low B 5er in place of using a C-Ext. I did discuss this here and there as well as making quite a few Threads on TB. Now that we are here and I have gone thru every type of 'Low' including a 5er, it's time I get the ball rolling once again. To re-cap a few old posts I will quote them below to get the fire lit..

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A few years ago I started looking into getting a 5-string. After trying one out I opted for having a Bass I had converted into a 5er. The first Bass I thought of converting didn't have enough room in the peg box to comfortable fit the 5th gear so we put a fingered extension on it instead. The next Bass was bigger but we still had to take some wood out just under the Scroll. This was not a pedigree of great value but did have a huge sound. Arnold turned it into a great 5-string Bass while doing a needed restoration. I played it for a few concerts and several rehearsals but after getting my next Bass done with a chromatic extension which can be fingered as well, I found this to be the best for me in most situations.

I found the 5th string in my way when not in use. Also, playing it was not as easy as I thought. The only music I found the 5er to be better to use than an Ext. was the Brandenburg Concertos where the low notes change faster than one could change the stops. I think with practice, one could pull it off. With the Beethoven's 5th, it can be fingered but how in-tune are you? Is intonation that important that low down and at that tempo?

Some players have a 5er at home for those special occasions when it would be best to use one. The majority of the players in USA just fight it out with whatever extension they have on their Bass. I am in the 'fight it out' stage as I have since put my 5er up for sale..
I am bringing the 5er back home for the summer to shed on Beethoven's 6th Storm section. I'll give the 5er another try out of necessity.
Now I have to re-think this 'one-Bass-does-all' thing.. yikes..
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Old 06-22-2007, 11:03 AM
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Bach's Brandenburgs and really all of the Beethoven Symphonies have long been among my favorites. If I can find a good way to convert my Dad's old Deutschte-Grammophon recordings to digital, I'll be able to enjoy them more often.

But about the Brandenburgs and the low notes;-

Do you think Bach's original composition referenced notes this low or is this something that is more likely a modern interpretation? There have been some different ideas about whether there were Baroque era instruments that actually could play those low notes. G violones certainly existed (similar to the Pollmann). Some researchers feel that there was an instrument that went even lower, to the D that we now have only with instruments with the C extension or BB string and there are a few drawings of really large instruments but almost nothing that still exists qualifies as a genuine Baroque instrument that might have this range.

I was just wondering. I'm a real low note freak myself so I like everything with the lower range.

Last edited by David Powell; 06-22-2007 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 06-23-2007, 07:13 AM
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Say fiver and here I am. Being a jazz player and not using the bow much, I don't have to expose myself to the horrors of having to bow the E with another string in the way ( the B ) That could get a bit edgy.
Did I tell you Kenny, that I saw Edgar Myer playing a fiver ( big! ) on TV with a small orchestra? He seemed very comfortable.
David, i've never heard of the low D you speak of.
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Old 06-23-2007, 09:34 AM
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Lightbulb set-up..

I think Set-up is a major factor in Bowing a 5-string Bass. It needs the right Bridge Arch and spacing between strings as well as a Sting that works best on that particular Bass.

Now that I am committed to doing the 5er thing again I will have to find what strings work best for the Bass I have. The 3 lower Permanents and 2 upper Flexocor were not as good as 4 Flexs and a Perm 'B'. The B is way too heavy for that set on my Bass and all the strings seem tight even though Arnold adjusted the Post yesterday. I think a slightly lighter tensioned set might work better for me.
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Old 06-23-2007, 06:50 PM
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Sure you know that D, Paul, it's on the B string at the top of 1/2 position or 3 half steps up from the nut. I know I referenced it kind of oddly referring to the extension, but it would be the second capo past the nut.

I'm thinking the Brandenburgs are going to work better on a 5 string because that has to be accurate and fast, and I know what Ken is talking about with string access. I found this rare portrait of Bach and I think he did it on a different instrument than the one currently used in the Orchestra:


I've tried the little bit of one of the Brandenburgs that I can remember by ear and down low, it's a work-out and it is tough to dig in on the E without skittering on the B or A also. I did put more space between the strings than the bass came with, but if I had it to do over again, I think there is a better spacing strategy than the one I used. I put them on one inch centers, but I should have put one inch between them. This is more difficult to work out at the bridge, but it helps with access to the E. String height is another part of the issue. The B has to be higher than the other strings, so you actually lose a little of the fingerboard arch at the bridge. So having some extra string space would help with that, but I'm thinking a slightly assymetric arch on the fingerboard with a tighter radius on the B side of the board might help also. Some 5-ers have a tighter radius than others, but that is a trade-off also, because you don't want the B string to contribute less tension to the bridge. If it is radiused too tight, the string might not be very strong. I'm thinking the optimum 5 string set up is much harder to get to than the optimum 4 string. Spacing, height and arch all have to be spot on. That said, I think I got mine playing pretty well all things considered. It looks real similar to the set-up on Anselm's bass. The arch looks similar as well. His doesn't seem to have a real tight radius. I'll get a photo of my bridge and post it. It's no work of art, but it works.

Last edited by David Powell; 06-23-2007 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 06-24-2007, 06:18 PM
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Cool The 'B' String...

For me, the Jury is still out on the Tension of this Low 'B' String. One BIG disadvantage most of us have is that in my case mainly, I have played 100s of 4 string Basses in my 40 or so years BUT have only played about 5 (that I can recall) 5-String Basses. I can actually name them but I may have touched one or two more in that time.

With so little experience on playing the 5-String, choosing the right strings for Bowing that Bass for what you need to play is much harder to do than on a 4-string that for me, I am way way more familiar with.

My 5er feels a little tight right now even after a Soundpost adjustment that did help but not enough. Maybe I have the wrong Strings on it? The G and D are tuned at 2 octaves and a third and less on the Lower strings with the Pecanic TP. Maybe I need to let the Cable up a bit till the G and D are tuned to a 4th. These are some of the mysteries of setting up the occasional 5er as compared to the standard 4-string.

In the BG field, I am one of the top people in the business of Multi-strings but on the DB 5, I am just getting started in comparison.
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Old 06-25-2007, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Powell View Post
Sure you know that D, Paul, it's on the B string at the top of 1/2 position or 3 half steps up from the nut. I know I referenced it kind of oddly referring to the extension, but it would be the second capo past the nut.
Of course I know that D David, I'd just never heard of tuning down to it.
My bad, I read your post wrong.

Last edited by Paul Warburton; 06-25-2007 at 06:22 AM.
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Old 08-16-2007, 07:02 AM
Don Carrigan Don Carrigan is offline
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5 & 6 string Basses:
Get a load of this 6 string 1650 "Violone" from Venice Click below: http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottv...ambaVenice.jpg
And here's my 1820 Prescott Busetto with 5 string conversion, (new 5 str. neck, special support of thin Prescott belly, string angle lessened over bridge, etc. Click below:
At an angle: http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottv...t%20Angled.jpg
Full front view: http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottv...tt%20FRONT.jpg
Formerly as 4 strings on a 3 string neck, 2002:
http://home.earthlink.net/~prescottv...rNeckBeach.jpg
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Old 08-16-2007, 07:32 AM
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Cool Violone..

Don, thanks for posting that Violone. I remember seeing that on line a few years ago but couldn't find it. My Mystery Bass is huge and internally built like a Violone or Gamba and this large Bass proves that they did make them bigger than the regular Viola d'Gamba/cello size.



The signs of Viol making in this Bass include old scars from thin rail type cross braces instead of crossbars, a small tab of wood near the current neck block left from a blockless type neck set and the soft lower corners like those of the old English and French Viol d'Gambas. Internally it curves around almost like a cornerless design. Also, the Bass with its current Neck as I got it measures about 6'5" from the Lower lip of the wood by the endpin to the tip of the Scroll which is a later added shorter 3-string Scroll now modified for 4-strings. This picture you posted Don gives me some clue as to what my 'biggie' might have been born as.

Don, I see that the link is from your website. What was the original source of this pic? Can you post that link so we can see maybe a few others or some more info on who is pictured playing it? The Bass in the back right of the photo in the corner doesn't look too small either!

Comparing some measurements, my Bass is a similar size to my former Prescott which was a slightly cut down 4/4 Bass, similar vintage to your Prescott.
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Old 08-16-2007, 07:49 AM
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Arrow Violone source...

Here is a link to what looks like that exact same Violone but the lady is not seen on the page. Link 1
Here's a few other Violone links from that page;
Link 2 Link 3 Link 4
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Old 08-16-2007, 09:16 AM
Johnny Layton Johnny Layton is offline
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I remember very well trying out a bass with f-holes just like this one time when Robertsons was around. It was an awesome bass and it looked so cool. They were willing to let me hang onto it and work out a deal with them but I declined. I wasn't (and am still not) in a position financially to own and maintain pedigree doublebass instruments.


Maybe when I am older and/or retired
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