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  #61  
Old 04-05-2007, 10:36 PM
Greg Clinkingbeard Greg Clinkingbeard is offline
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The gig was the most fun I've had in a long time, but kinda in a high pressure situation. I read two full sets of charts I had never seen before ; a couple being five pagers at about 250bpm. The best part was when the leader called a tune and counted off a tempo by snapping his fingers. As one of the trombone guys said, "that's kind of slow", the 1st trumpet guy yelled out, "dude, that's not quarter notes, but full bars"!

A big part of improving as a musician is playing with other musicians that make us sweat a little. To be challenged by guys who are fun to be with makes it a whole lot easier.

One final thought: Isn't it really all about the music? This 'inside baseball' stuff is just a sideshow IMO. We can all come together and enjoy playing bass.
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  #62  
Old 10-16-2007, 04:15 PM
Corey DiMario Corey DiMario is offline
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First of all let me say that I'm new here in this forum and have spent the past few days reading through as many of the threads as possible. It's a great site with many knowledgeable and generous bassists and luthiers offering up their services for all to read. I look forward to interacting and learning while being here.

I will say that I am kind of shocked to learn about all of the feuds and animosity between folks here and over at TBDB. I don't know the whole story, and quite frankly, i don't care. I'm here to learn and to interact with my fellow bassists and I'm staying out of that stuff.

Anyway, not to beat a dead horse or bring up any bad feelings, but I thought I'd give my opinion, for what it's worth, on the whole affordable plywood and hybrid basses out there today subject. Whether it's a New Standard, one of the fine looking Romanian or Chinese basses Ken Smith has to offer, an Upton or any other cheap (5K and under) bass, the choices today for bass players in this market are staggering. The quality, sound and playability of all of these basses, from what I have both seen in person and read about is so much higher than what I had to start out with when I was first learning. When I was first starting, there just weren't these kinds of options, at least that I was aware of. You simply went with whatever the local shop had to offer in your price range, which is more like settling for a poorly set up piece of junk than choosing an instrument. We should all be glad that aspiring bassists can so easily get their hands on a well setup, decent sounding, entry level bass to start learning. Bravo to all of the fine luthiers and shops doing their best to get good basses into the hands of players!

For full disclosure, I own an Upton Hawkes Laminate and for what it is, it's great and I've been very pleased with it. It's my main axe on the road and does the job wonderfully for the kind of music I play. Would I take it to audition for the symphony? Probably not. I don't think anyone is suggesting that. I was in the market for a plywood bass for the road and I checked out a bunch of basses and in my price range and within a reasonable drive form where I live, it was the best option for me. I personally wouldn't buy a bass sight unseen and have it shipped, but I'm also lucky to be on the east coast, a short drive from some great shops. Upton is not the only choice and as you say, Ken, the New Standards are a "different breed" but that comes with a price, and I wasn't in the market to drop 5K at the time. I was in the market to spend 2K and the Upton was the one I liked best after playing a bunch of basses.

Quote:
One thing that used to bother me personally over on TB was all this excitement and bragging about these great plywood and Hybrid Basses with Upton included in the mix. I rarely got a fraction of the excitement introducing a Dodd, Gilkes, Prescott or other great REAL handmade classic of what we saw when the new Home Depot Hybrid hit the store shelves.
In regards to this comment, I think it only makes sense that these low cost plys and hybrids attract so much attention. Most players, myself included, can only dream of getting a chance to play on, let alone own a master quality bass like the ones you own and sell, Ken. You are clearly a perfectionist and connoisseur and the world needs people with your experience, knowledge and skill both as a player and as a luthier and shop owner. However, the truth is that you are passionate about a class of bass that only really affects a small fraction of the bassist out there. What am I going to say about those basses that you or others with a knowledge base and experience to match yours haven't already said? Most of us simply drool over the pictures, read what you have to say about the basses to learn a bit and move on. You are driving and selling Ferraris and most of us are in the market for an affordable and reliable Honda.

Now, with low cost, instruments, a lot more people have played them and even if they haven't, people feel more comfortable joining the conversation without feeling dumb or inferior. That's what these forums are for, right? to get everyone talking and offering up opinions so we can all learn more.
Plus, it's fun to be excited about an instrument that one actually has a chance of owning.

Anyway, just my two cents. Glad to be here.

Corey
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  #63  
Old 10-16-2007, 10:44 PM
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Cool just my two cents?

Only your 2 cents? Gee, I would duck if it were a dollar's worth..lol

Yes, I do have a passion for these great Basses and I understand the lack of contribution and the reasons why.

With that said, I brought in some Hybrid and Plywood Romanian Basses for the local market here, sold out of them and am just now re-stocking.

When I was starting out the Plywood Juzek at Juzek/Metropolitan in NY was $150. A used older German carved or flat Back 50-100 years old was about $100-$200 depending. The Juzek carved Basses stated at $200. In my early days we had some Basses as well but not the selection we have today.

As far as any of the feuds you referred to above yes, it's just no healthy to go into it in detail. Some of it is business and some of it is personal so we can just move on and let it rest.

There are more Bass players today I think than ever before. Lower cost Basses allow more semi-interested players to get involved in the 'sport' than they could before if the Basses were the same and inflated to todays economy.

Fair competition is always healthy for business all around. I say Fair with a capitol 'F'. The Guitar business has a much bigger problem with this than the DB field any day of the week.

Thank's for posting. Good conversation is always healthy, or visa versa..
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  #64  
Old 10-17-2007, 07:40 AM
Corey DiMario Corey DiMario is offline
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thanks for responding, Ken. It's interesting to have a sense of the prices on juzeks and other basses "back in the day."

Next time I'm down your way and have a few minutes to spare I'd love to drop by the shop and see first hand some of the instruments you have there.
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  #65  
Old 10-20-2007, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey DiMario View Post
it's fun to be excited about an instrument that one actually has a chance of owning.
Right on Corey
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  #66  
Old 10-23-2007, 02:25 PM
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Default Uhm, maybe 50 cents ....

Well, I wasn't going to open this one back up, but at an open mic about a week ago, I finally saw, heard, and played a fellow player's Upton Hybrid. Those don't get down here to Atlanta too often and it is easy to see why. In all honesty, I can't say there was anything special at all about that bass. Both bass shops here that I visit regularly have basses that will blow the Upton off the map for about the same $$. It wasn't a bad bass, it just wasn't any better than the average bass that shows up there. That would include several all laminated basses as well as some Christopher hybrids (which IMO, all sounded far better), a hybrid Eastman (quite similar to the Upton in a lot of ways by sound but just looks better built), a plywood Johannes Kohr (sp?) that actually shouldn't sound nearly as good as it does. The really good sounding basses I've heard at that club were either older carved German basses or carved Hungarian basses.

I think if someone (Michael Case for example) has a Strunal, he might already be ahead quality wise. The owner of this particular Upton bass (it was the bigger shouldered hybrid one, not the Hawkes, and about a year old) was not that thrilled with it either and was already looking for upgrades. That fellow was a really good player, IMO.

I'm not saying the Upton is a bad bass, it just comes no where close to living up to the TB hype. The fellow running the open mic (a very accomplished bassist in his own right) told me he has seen / heard / played 3 or 4 of them and he wasn't too impressed at all.

As far as the "finished to the customer's choice" option;- take the factory finish on the Gliga whatever that is or the upgraded Wulter finish. I had my nuclear nitrocellose (Ken's favorite cheap finish ) Kremona there to compare and I'd prefer that any day to whatever was on the Upton. There were quite a few bassists at that particular jazz open mic and it is heavily attended by Georgia State College jazz program musicians. From what I could tell among those that tried both basses (understand I did my own set-up on the Kremona;- no adjusters and low string height) there was a rather distinct and unanimous preference for the Kremona as well as a rather mistaken perception that it was a "very expensive" carved bass. There aren't many Kremonas in Atlanta either, but I think there might be a few more soon. Guesses on the Kremona price from other bassists were starting at 3x what I paid for it and going up when I said, "no that's not what it cost..."

I've got no personal or business interest in pushing Kremona, Christopher, or any make of bass;- just happy to have a Kremona and apparently some others would be happy to have it too. I've just heard enough of this "I've heard them side by side and you haven't" bull over at TB that works up until I finally do hear them side by side. What a joke!

OK, so all that said, I'm going to the woodshed so someday I might be worthy of something like Bollbach's Palotta.....
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  #67  
Old 10-23-2007, 03:22 PM
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Question Ken's favorite cheap finish?

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Originally Posted by David Powell View Post
Well, I wasn't going to open this one back up, but at an open mic about a week ago, I finally saw, heard, and played a fellow player's Upton Hybrid. Those don't get down here to Atlanta too often and it is easy to see why. In all honesty, I can't say there was anything special at all about that bass. Both bass shops here that I visit regularly have basses that will blow the Upton off the map for about the same $$. It wasn't a bad bass, it just wasn't any better than the average bass that shows up there. That would include several all laminated basses as well as some Christopher hybrids (which IMO, all sounded far better), a hybrid Eastman (quite similar to the Upton in a lot of ways by sound but just looks better built), a plywood Johannes Kohr (sp?) that actually shouldn't sound nearly as good as it does. The really good sounding basses I've heard at that club were either older carved German basses or carved Hungarian basses.

I think if someone (Michael Case for example) has a Strunal, he might already be ahead quality wise. The owner of this particular Upton bass (it was the bigger shouldered hybrid one, not the Hawkes, and about a year old) was not that thrilled with it either and was already looking for upgrades. That fellow was a really good player, IMO.

I'm not saying the Upton is a bad bass, it just comes no where close to living up to the TB hype. The fellow running the open mic (a very accomplished bassist in his own right) told me he has seen / heard / played 3 or 4 of them and he wasn't too impressed at all.

As far as the "finished to the customer's choice" option;- take the factory finish on the Gliga whatever that is or the upgraded Wulter finish. I had my nuclear nitrocellose (Ken's favorite cheap finish ) Kremona there to compare and I'd prefer that any day to whatever was on the Upton. There were quite a few bassists at that particular jazz open mic and it is heavily attended by Georgia State College jazz program musicians. From what I could tell among those that tried both basses (understand I did my own set-up on the Kremona;- no adjusters and low string height) there was a rather distinct and unanimous preference for the Kremona as well as a rather mistaken perception that it was a "very expensive" carved bass. There aren't many Kremonas in Atlanta either, but I think there might be a few more soon. Guesses on the Kremona price from other bassists were starting at 3x what I paid for it and going up when I said, "no that's not what it cost..."

I've got no personal or business interest in pushing Kremona, Christopher, or any make of bass;- just happy to have a Kremona and apparently some others would be happy to have it too. I've just heard enough of this "I've heard them side by side and you haven't" bull over at TB that works up until I finally do hear them side by side. What a joke!

OK, so all that said, I'm going to the woodshed so someday I might be worthy of something like Bollbach's Palotta.....

Hey, how did I get dragged back into this thing..lol

I just got in a Hybrid Panormo (made by Gliga) but with the Wultur German Spirit Varnish and not the standard Gliga Lacquer. The Laq. finish I allow only on the Plywood models here. I set it up yesterday morning and it was sold by lunch time. I guess in that price range ($2,750 or $2,800 with cover) I will have to bring more of these in.

It sounded different than the last one I got in but still sounded good. The teacher of the first customer who got one from me was surprised how good a Bass it was for the money. Yes, there are many good low end Basses available today.
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  #68  
Old 03-10-2009, 05:26 PM
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Two years since I started this post. A lot has changed. Still studying, playing at a much higher level, I have heard many, many other bassists and basses since the original post. Here is my new review of the Upton Hybrid bass I have had since January 2007.

This bass gets better sounding all the time. Both classical players and Jazz players have had great things to say about both the pizz and arco sound of my bass. It bows well, sounds present and even and sings throughout the entire range of the bass. It lost it's overly bright edge it had when it was new but remains present and warm. It is easy to hear when playing in a section as the whole bass resonates making pitch easy to hear/feel. Action is on the lower side of normal yet it still bows well. Pizzacoto is punchy and aggressive, great for grooving and walking. Its produces very loud and clear fundamentals.

As many have pointed out, there are other basses in this price point. I will tell you that mine is a winner. It gets noticed sonically and it keeps getting better. I have no affiliation with the manufacturer, this is 100% straight and honest take on a bass which I now have some history with, am getting to really know and love.
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  #69  
Old 03-11-2009, 04:21 PM
Clay Upton Clay Upton is offline
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Originally Posted by Jeff Gellis View Post
Upton Basses....

I would love to hear what luthiers and other players think of them.
I just like the name...no affiliation however.
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  #70  
Old 05-26-2011, 04:51 AM
Shane Wilcox Shane Wilcox is offline
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This thread has been resurrected once before, so I don't feel too bad. As I understand it, the thread was started before Upton began making their own basses. As has been noted, they get a good deal of positive press over on TB; perhaps some of it is overblown, but many otherwise seemingly rational reviewers give them props. Is there anyone here with an informed opinion regarding their hybrid basses? I am considering having one shipped over here to NZ, and am obviously not in a position to try one out beforehand. The best "locally" available basses would be a Christopher 401 or 502 from Auckland (8-9 hours drive on a good day), and possibly a Stentor Conservatoire (seemingly available from time to time in my home city, Wellington). I had the opportunity to play on and hear Richard's Christopher 503 (?correct model) and thoroughly enjoyed it, but I have little direct experience of other good basses to compare it with. I would very much appreciate those with greater experience than I helping make my decision a little easier.

Thanks in advance!

Shane
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  #71  
Old 05-27-2011, 01:47 AM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Shane, as I believe I told you last weekend, check out what Ken and his mates have to say.
If I was buying a bass that I'd never played, I'd certainly trust the word Ken and Arnold Schnitzer, because they're the best, they're gentlemen of honour (sorry about the spelling of 'honor' Ken), and truly onto it. Otherwise be careful buying something, from so far away, that you've never had your hands on.
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  #72  
Old 05-27-2011, 02:17 AM
Shane Wilcox Shane Wilcox is offline
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Thanks for your thoughts and advice, Richard. I would dearly love Ken and/or Arnold to chime in here -- I understand that there is some "bad blood" relating to various interwebz exchanges between Ken and some people connected with Upton; I am not suggesting that this would colour (spelling again!) Ken's expert opinion regarding the quality of these basses, and his views expressed earlier in this thread seem to predate the "in-house" construction at Upton. This is the main reason for re-opening the question.

I am still leaning towards the Christopher, but will hopefully get a chance to look at the Stentor currently being set up for Alistair by Malcolm (the Wellingtonians will know who I mean) towards the end of next week. It would seem that shipping costs may well be prohibitive if Ken's estimate to me was anything to go by (and I assume it is).
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  #73  
Old 05-27-2011, 02:38 AM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Wilcox View Post
Thanks for your thoughts and advice, Richard. I would dearly love Ken and/or Arnold to chime in here -- I understand that there is some "bad blood" relating to various interwebz exchanges between Ken and some people connected with Upton; I am not suggesting that this would colour (spelling again!) Ken's expert opinion regarding the quality of these basses, and his views expressed earlier in this thread seem to predate the "in-house" construction at Upton. This is the main reason for re-opening the question.
I can only reassure you that Ken is a man of honour (sorry again about the spelling Ken) who has the intelligence and integrity to rise well above the infantile level of throwing sand at an opponent.
To quote the musical 'Chess' (imagine Ken saying this),
"I'm a chess player, you play these other games."
Yes, you need to hear from Ken and Arnold now. I step back, like a competent MC would do.
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  #74  
Old 05-27-2011, 09:00 AM
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Cool well..

First off, thanks for all the oozing of respect. I do try hard to give out only the facts that I believe in. In fact, I was at Arnold's just yesterday. I dropped off my Hart to make room in my Racks for some other Basses coming in and left it there for him to show to some buyers when they visit. I brought home my Tarr bass with a new c-extension and my newly acquired Claudot bass.

I have read this thread but didn't want to respond in a negative manner off the cuff just because the word 'Upton' was mentioned. I saw their ISB entry in 2009 and played it. I was shocked when 'they' won an award for it as the basses I liked were far better. One of the judges is also a customer of theirs and they just started placing big advertisements in the ISB magazine so you can go figure what happened there. Not bad basses at all, just not award winners as compared to the other seasoned makers that were displayed there. As I told Upton before in writng on line, "I wish them the best of luck in manufacturing basses in USA to compete with European and Asian imports". How they will compete with their prices and stay in business working in USA is a mystery to me. I have been in business here in USA for over 30 years and with the expenses we incur I can't see doing anything but upper end stuff. We just can't compete with low wages and benefits with what some other countries can get away with and cost of living comparisons.

On another note as I did email back to Shane last night about me shipping him a single bass. Freight is usually cheaper with bigger shipments rather than singe pieces and that's IF it gets there in one piece. If you walk IN to my shop and pick up a bass, that's a different story.

On that note, buying a Chinese bass from a well known brand locally, trying it out, inspecting it before you buy and having a dealer there to service you considering this is like a 'big delicate baby' is the way to go. The bigger they are, the harder they fall. Big wood moves more than small wood so seeing a bass 'ready to go' rather than what's behind door #1 is much less risk in making a purchase of a bass. Even if it means you do not buy from me! .. That's just the truth in the matter and no way around it. For beginner basses, Christopher instruments are fairly well respected along with Eastman (here) and Shen. The Stentor I think is a UK brand name Asian Import and don't know what grade of instrument it is so I can't comment. I have played in a section with a high end Christopher 5-string Busetto model and it was beautiful with sound to match. It was on the same level as any high end Shen looking from the outside.

So, I would go for the Christopher by name and have it fully set-up by the dealer/Shop in your area. A no brainer if the price is fair in your parts. You can email shops in the states also for the same model bass set-up and then shipped and then compare as well. The shop you are in had it shipped to them most likely from China. From USA, it would be getting shipped the 2nd time. These come in first as Ocean freight in a container. Buying one bass, you get airfreight, a whole different cost structure. I hope this helps, good luck.

One last note is that if Upton had a dealer there (and they do sell to dealers), then you could compare before you buy and not take the risk yourself on a single shipped bass that you had paid for in advance, blind, with your fingers crossed hoping it gets there the way you expected and in one piece after shipping. Email Upton and see if they have a dealer there. If not, I suggest you buy what you and your teacher (you don't have a teacher yet??) can try and evaluate together.
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  #75  
Old 05-27-2011, 04:23 PM
Shane Wilcox Shane Wilcox is offline
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Thanks for the sage advice, Ken. To address your last concern first -- I do have a teacher, and I'm going to try and get him along to try the Stentor with me. And while not ideal in terms of a trial, I am taking what I've heard and felt of Richard's Christopher as an indication of what I might expect from the 401.

I've emailed Upton twice regarding their shipping costs and have yet to receive a reply; I'm not jumping to conclusions, but this does seem rather at odds with their much vaunted reputation for customer service, and would make me a little wary of dealing with them further from such a distance.

I appreciated your fast response to my ill-placed PM (sorry about that) and your candour there and here regarding the costs and risks associated with shipping. Would that I could visit your establishment, but even then, those caveats would apply.

It may be that the Christophers are freighted here from China and set up in Auckland, but I know that the Stentors are sent from China to England for "finishing" and then here for their setup by a good local luthier. Prices here are correspondingly higher than I've seen advertised in the USA and UK, but there are advantages to living at the bottom of the world, too (right, Richard? ).

Thanks again, and I'll shift any further discussion of these basses to the "Chinese/Asian basses" forum.

Shane

Edit: 11 days later and still no response; too late now, I've bought a Christopher.

Last edited by Shane Wilcox; 06-05-2011 at 07:48 PM.
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  #76  
Old 05-27-2011, 04:48 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Where's the Stentor? In Alistair's shop? Can I come to the trial too? I've played a few Stentors.
Ken: Malcolm, our longest serving and most respected luthier (greater Wellingrton area), talked to me personally of a Stentor that he was really impressed with (I was on his premises getting some work done on my Christopher at the time) - it belongs to the deputy principal of the NZSO (she'd bought it as a 'road bass') and he'd set it up.
Alistair (a guy who runs a local string shop in Wellington and who has been in the business for about 30 years) has imported quite a few Stentors over the last few years. He often asks me to test basses he gets in, so I've played a few Stentors.
In my opinion Christophers and Stentors are pretty comparable and it would depend on the individual bass as to which is 'better'.
Alistair did tell me that he felt the last few Chinese basses he'd brought in (I didn't see these ones and I don't know if they were Stentors or not) weren't really up to scratch and he thought they were trying to cut costs, now that their reputation had been cemented - evidently one had a plastic nut!
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  #77  
Old 05-27-2011, 05:04 PM
Shane Wilcox Shane Wilcox is offline
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Hey Richard -- I'm emailing you!
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  #78  
Old 05-27-2011, 05:12 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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And I'm waiting for it.
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  #79  
Old 05-27-2011, 05:46 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Got it!

I'll bring my bow.
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