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Old 02-17-2014, 08:35 PM
Mike Weems Mike Weems is offline
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Default Mystery Cello 1670?

I know this is a bass forum but I have this cello and since cellos are double bass's little brother I thought someone here may be able to help me ID it. this is the state this cello was in when I received it and I have been moving it from place to place for the last 20 years. decided to do something with it. I had a Hamm violin of similar construction 1830's. It dose have a date of 1670 written on the back in what looks like lead. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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  #2  
Old 02-18-2014, 12:55 AM
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Exclamation 1670 or $16.70?.. lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Weems View Post
I know this is a bass forum but I have this cello and since cellos are double bass's little brother I thought someone here may be able to help me ID it. this is the state this cello was in when I received it and I have been moving it from place to place for the last 20 years. decided to do something with it. I had a Hamm violin of similar construction 1830's. It dose have a date of 1670 written on the back in what looks like lead. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Ok, the condition of the wood is way way newer than 1670. The scroll and neck look a bit like Yankee construction like Prescott. I think it was maybe refinished as the back looks new and even inside the back doesn't look that old. Maybe, just maybe it's from 1870 which is late for Prescott but it looks more like 20th century condition. Maybe $16.70 was the price back then but in no way was this made that far back.
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:09 AM
Mike Weems Mike Weems is offline
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Default Thanks

I did not think it was that early but the construction is so odd I could not place it. Thanks again for the info. At least that's a starting point for me. Note about the construction originally the ribs fit into channel cut into the back. Also there is a repair label J Metheny 1921. I agree that might be a price or a twisted joke.
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Old 02-18-2014, 09:32 AM
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Thumbs up construction..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Weems View Post
I did not think it was that early but the construction is so odd I could not place it. Thanks again for the info. At least that's a starting point for me. Note about the construction originally the ribs fit into channel cut into the back. Also there is a repair label J Metheny 1921. I agree that might be a price or a twisted joke.
Mike, that IS the construction of the early Yankee school. That is guitar style construction and was partially done in Europe as well in the early days. The Scroll and Pegbox is definitely Yankee and I attribute it to Prescott or one of his workers of followers.
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:20 PM
Mike Weems Mike Weems is offline
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Default Maybe Prescott Cello

Just looked over your Prescott bass Restore pics. The peg box walls on this cello originally hand inlayed tuner plates not friction pegs. The figured maple sides were fit later. thanks again as usual your help is invaluable.
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  #6  
Old 02-18-2014, 01:25 PM
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Lightbulb Prescott

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Originally Posted by Mike Weems View Post
Just looked over your Prescott bass Restore pics. The peg box walls on this cello originally hand inlayed tuner plates not friction pegs. The figured maple sides were fit later. thanks again as usual your help is invaluable.
Yes, Prescott Cellos were 4-strings and they were mostly but a few not Cellos but Church basses with gears on plates. The double basses were made with 3 strings and most of them have since been converted to 4-strings. A few basses have the old plates with 4-strings and might have been converted in Prescott's time as I don't know of any basses he made in 4-strings originally but they could have been made in 4s as well.
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Old 02-18-2014, 01:28 PM
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Lightbulb have a look at this..

http://www.cello.org/heaven/cowling/prescott.jpg

From; http://www.cello.org/heaven/cowling/makecel.htm

Cello Size Comparison .Length of Body Upper Bouts Lower Bouts

Pietro Guarneri.............30 inches 13 3/8 inches 17 1/2 inches

Santo Seraphin............ 28 3/4 inches 13 13/16 inches 16 7/8 inches

Abraham Prescott........ 32 inches 14 1/2 inches 18 5/8 inches
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Old 02-18-2014, 02:57 PM
Mike Weems Mike Weems is offline
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Default wow

This cello measures
body length 29 1/4
upper bout width 13 1/4
lower bout 16 3/8

so I guess it's a true cello? going over link cello page thanks again.
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  #9  
Old 02-20-2014, 08:47 AM
Mike Weems Mike Weems is offline
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Default Last question

I am going to go ahead and restore this cello. the question that I have is this. The dimensions are odd on this instrument so is it ok to alter some, such as f-stop and neck length or do I stay with original intent. This would also apply to any future basses that I may have to repair. I don't have a problem making structural changes.
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  #10  
Old 02-20-2014, 11:18 AM
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Wink ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Weems View Post
I am going to go ahead and restore this cello. the question that I have is this. The dimensions are odd on this instrument so is it ok to alter some, such as f-stop and neck length or do I stay with original intent. This would also apply to any future basses that I may have to repair. I don't have a problem making structural changes.
I don't know what this needs. Altering an instrument is irreversible. Also, I have no idea what your skills are. You are talking major surgery on an old Cello/Church Bass. This is most likely a Prescott or something close. In the Cello world, these Yankee instruments do not have a high value. The basses on the other hand do but they are usually big and big is not 'in' at the moment. I have owned one Prescott (sold), one Batchelder (sold) and a beautiful JB Allen bass. For the sound that each of these produce, I feel that they sell more in the German to English price ranges rather then the Italian.

So, be prepared to spend time and money that you will not receive back as this can turn into a negative cost/value project.

Every instrument is different. It's value in the end is usually my guide to what work will be affordable for recouping my investment. Sometimes however, the love for an instrument gets the best of you. I am currently having (amongst other basses) an old Tirol blockless bass restored and repaired as well as altered. The string length will be slightly shortened with a block 'area' cut and its first block installed as it never had one. Many Tirol, German and Bohemian instruments were made without neck blocks and more-so in the style of guitar construction. Before the German countries made violins, they were content making just Lutes and Guitars. The trailed the Italians by about 100 years getting into the Violin. Some believe that Stainer was the first and introduced the violin to the Germans but, I don't think that is 100% accurate. None the less, these Yankee self taught makers learned from a combination of German imports coming in and cabinet making in skills. Combiner together, you have the Yankee basses which include the large Cello-like Church basses and a few smaller ones that were closer to the size of the Cello. If it had tuning gears/plates with machines like double basses and not pegs like a violin, then your instrument was most likely made and intended to be a Church Bass regardless of its size. Maybe!.. I have seen a few cheap german violins with tiny guitar sized gears as well but those I believe were made for students as opposed to professionals.

As far as building styles go over the 4+ centuries and the pinpointing of who did what where or when, it's a total mess tyring to line these origins up. It's more like a 400 year free for all. Do what you like and they will sort it out in the future.. lol
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Old 02-20-2014, 03:04 PM
Mike Weems Mike Weems is offline
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Default Great advice

Once again thanks for this info. I will restore this as a church bass and not try to make it into a cello. As mentioned a few posts ago it has a repair label in it from 1922 J Renwick Metheny. Also found a large hand written note on the back listing all the repairs he did to it all of which will have to be undone. Pretty horrific stuff. He was into old instrument stuff so I suspect that is where the 1670 hand written date came from. I don't like to criticize someone who is not here and over such a long time but man what a mess. I have posted some pics of the inside so you will see what I will have to deal with. As for my level I have been repairing and making violins and guitars for 29years god I can' believe how fast time goes. since the back has been cut of ie out of the grove in the back what I would like to do is to fully line the instrument add corner blocks and heel graft the neck so it can be converted to a typical neck joint with new neck block. As I have moved into restoration work I only restore Instruments that belong to me all the while be cognizant of prosperity. With forum like this Upton bass and others the restoration work I have done has come out quite well.

Thanking you again
Mike Weems
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  #12  
Old 02-20-2014, 03:26 PM
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Weems View Post
Once again thanks for this info. I will restore this as a church bass and not try to make it into a cello. As mentioned a few posts ago it has a repair label in it from 1922 J Renwick Metheny. Also found a large hand written note on the back listing all the repairs he did to it all of which will have to be undone. Pretty horrific stuff. He was into old instrument stuff so I suspect that is where the 1670 hand written date came from. I don't like to criticize someone who is not here and over such a long time but man what a mess. I have posted some pics of the inside so you will see what I will have to deal with. As for my level I have been repairing and making violins and guitars for 29years god I can' believe how fast time goes. since the back has been cut of ie out of the grove in the back what I would like to do is to fully line the instrument add corner blocks and heel graft the neck so it can be converted to a typical neck joint with new neck block. As I have moved into restoration work I only restore Instruments that belong to me all the while be cognizant of prosperity. With forum like this Upton bass and others the restoration work I have done has come out quite well.

Thanking you again
Mike Weems
I don't know what others you watch but look at some old basses on my site that have archived photos of the repairs. You need blocks where you don't have as well as linings. You need to cut all the old wood from the neck heel and see if it can be used or make a neck graft and get the length and heel done right. Those repairs by todays standards and even back then are quite horrible. Gut the instrument and do it all right.

My Prescott bass has signs of the ribs inserted into the back at least and maybe the top. The upper and lower bouts were cut down but I suspect it was blockless just like this cello.

Post restoration; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/prescott/

Pre-restoration and restoration pics; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...t-preview.html
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Old 02-20-2014, 04:31 PM
Mike Weems Mike Weems is offline
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Default Yes indeed

That is what I plan to do. Your Prescott pics are where I started. Yes would like to save the old neck as that seams relatively unmarred. Want very much to save the extra volutes at the nut area because if it indeed is a Prescott he carved them. I can re-carve them of course but it won't be quite the same This instrument has always seam special to me thus finely decided to bring it back from the abyss.
Thanks again for all the help.
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Old 02-20-2014, 09:48 PM
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Weems View Post
That is what I plan to do. Your Prescott pics are where I started. Yes would like to save the old neck as that seams relatively unmarred. Want very much to save the extra volutes at the nut area because if it indeed is a Prescott he carved them. I can re-carve them of course but it won't be quite the same This instrument has always seam special to me thus finely decided to bring it back from the abyss.
Thanks again for all the help.
In a graft you never cut the button away. My JB Allen had a new neck and was re carved to look like it was all original. If the neck is too long, it will need replacing. I have had many basses with good necks that were just too long. A standard graft is the only solution or a false nut but that is an excuse not to do a full fix. I have made several false nuts as well, my self!

Look here at the Allen and see that most of the bottom cheek box carving is new but blends perfectly by the button. No loss there. http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/allen/
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Old 02-21-2014, 07:47 AM
Mike Weems Mike Weems is offline
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Default Not what I ment

Sorry my meaning was not clear. I have done quite a few neck grafts. here is a pic that I should have sent with my last post. Again the neck is in good shape but if a graft becomes ness I will do it.
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  #16  
Old 02-21-2014, 09:02 AM
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Weems View Post
Sorry my meaning was not clear. I have done quite a few neck grafts. here is a pic that I should have sent with my last post. Again the neck is in good shape but if a graft becomes ness I will do it.
That raised carving on the lower cheek is a fraction of complexity as compared to the JB Allen. That would be relatively easy to do. On the Allen, it's even scribed into the edge of the nut on both sides.




And also, note the crafty 3-to-4 string conversion.. 3 gear posts, 4 gears..



The varnish is all original by the way other then some touch up on the new wood and splices in some cracks on the ribs. Olde orange shellac with all the solvents long gone.
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Old 02-21-2014, 09:32 AM
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Default Nice

Oh yes a volute is always easier to carve than a bead. Not afraid to carve it only speaking from originality stand point. This poor voyager has had too many alterations done to it already. But what ever it needs I'll do.

P.S.
Beautiful bass buy the way.

Thanks
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