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Old 01-19-2012, 09:48 PM
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Lightbulb Music needed..

Does anyone have a String Bass part for the Holst Second Suite in F?

The part they sent me says 'Basses' and there are some octave splits in the part but still, 3 and 4 ledger lines below the staff is clearly for the Tuba, not the D.Bass. I know it has an optional part for String Bass but what they sent is a Tuba part as far as I can tell.
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Old 01-20-2012, 03:56 PM
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Ken, being a concert band tuba player since high school, I checked a couple of different sources, including The Boosey & Hawkes website, Hal Leonard (who distributes the Boosey & Hawkes catalogue in the USA), a "public domain" scanned full score and parts, and well, Wiki to try to find further links. It appears there was/is only one part for "Basses"; no separate part for double bass, at least in the original concert band edition. The octave splits are for Eb tubas and Bb tubas and/or where the player wants to choose to "break back" the runs.

http://imslp.org/wiki/Second_Suite_f...(Holst,_Gustav)

Last edited by Scott Pope; 01-20-2012 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 01-20-2012, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pope View Post
Ken, being a concert band tuba player since high school, I checked a couple of different sources, including The Boosey & Hawkes website, Hal Leonard (who distributes the Boosey & Hawkes catalogue in the USA), a "public domain" scanned full score and parts, and well, Wiki to try to find further links. It appears there was/is only one part for "Basses"; no separate part for double bass, at least in the original concert band edition. The octave splits are for Eb tubas and Bb tubas and/or where the player wants to choose to "break back" the runs.

http://imslp.org/wiki/Second_Suite_for_Military_Band,_Op.28_No.2_(Holst, _Gustav)
I found the part on line because the Orchestra Version does have an optional String Bass part, not just the Tuba/Basses part.
http://www.onlinesheetmusic.com/seco...s-p311160.aspx

I was just hoping someone had it and might scan me a copy. They Conductor doesn't seem to care if I play on that piece or not as I have one other to play in that concert and he 'offered' to 'let' me play one other piece. My feelings are if I am to play, give me music written for 'my' instrument as some of the parts are 2 and 3 lines below my 5-string DB. Some parts are written in octaves and some not but re-writing the lines for 4-string bass range, I don't know what octave to play them in by how the part is they gave me marked Basses. Even with the parts in octaves, the String bass part shown as an example is even an octave above the basses split part and MUCH cleaner to read. Now I have 3 octaves to look at and play one of them. The music is over-marker up now and strains my eyes as I can hardly tell what line the notes are I'm playing. Way too cluttered.

I might have to just bite the bullet and buy the part. I have one rehearsal next month (2/2), the dress reh. the following night and the Concert the next on the 4th. I might just go and see how it works with my doctored up Basses/Tuba part and if my eyes hurt that night, buy the part the next day to use and then just own it. It's quite fast and 'fugue' like in spots. Too fast to be thinking about notes and transposing ledger lines.
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Old 01-20-2012, 05:04 PM
Scott Pope Scott Pope is offline
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Ken, traditionally, the lowest note of a 3-valve BBb tuba, the instrument that Holst was familiar with, is E natural four ledger lines and a space below the bass clef. Of course, this is the actual pitch, not the transposed notation pitch, of a standard open E string of a 4-string double bass.

This is very convenient, as convention is to simply take a tuba part and play everything up an octave from what is written on double bass. Even today, until you get to some grade 5 or 6 pieces written for 4 and 5 valve tubas, 99%+ of all concert band literature has this same range. Even then, it's only the occasional note, playable with a handful of valves, in the same manner as playing the same notes on a C-extension double bass.

I still occasionally have to sight transpose, both ways. In my jazz/dance band, I occasionally get tuba parts that I play up an octave, and in concert band I occasionally get double bass or bass guitar parts that I play down an octave, or occasionally we'll get a piece that just sounds better on one instrument or the other, or even electric bass, and I just make it work.

Since the orchestra part is available, yes, I'd just get it, because it will take awhile, even with Finale or Sibelius, to rewrite the part up an octave. Then you'll always have it.
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Old 01-20-2012, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pope View Post
Ken, traditionally, the lowest note of a 3-valve BBb tuba, the instrument that Holst was familiar with, is E natural four ledger lines and a space below the bass clef. Of course, this is the actual pitch, not the transposed notation pitch, of a standard open E string of a 4-string double bass.

This is very convenient, as convention is to simply take a tuba part and play everything up an octave from what is written on double bass. Even today, until you get to some grade 5 or 6 pieces written for 4 and 5 valve tubas, 99%+ of all concert band literature has this same range. Even then, it's only the occasional note, playable with a handful of valves, in the same manner as playing the same notes on a C-extension double bass.

I still occasionally have to sight transpose, both ways. In my jazz/dance band, I occasionally get tuba parts that I play up an octave, and in concert band I occasionally get double bass or bass guitar parts that I play down an octave, or occasionally we'll get a piece that just sounds better on one instrument or the other, or even electric bass, and I just make it work.

Since the orchestra part is available, yes, I'd just get it, because it will take awhile, even with Finale or Sibelius, to rewrite the part up an octave. Then you'll always have it.
Yes, I know all about the transposing thing as I started playing bass at 13, turned 60 last Sept. and played 20 years professionally in NY. Rarely did I EVER have to transpose because in professional circles, they write the parts in the correct octave. Imagine being a trumpet player and they give you the trombone part!

I get one rehearsal this time before the dress reh. because there are only two pieces for bass this concert which was originally Brass and Woodwinds only. I also will play the Dvorak Serenade for Winds and Brass with 1-Bass and 1-Cello as well in that concert.

I played for a year and change about 10 years ago in a concert band and some of the pieces were only for Tuba of which I have to transpose. One piece I made up the part by copy/pasting a mix of the Tuba and Bassoon parts to make up a DB part. When I left that band, they had a real bass book. Something they never had for well over 100 years since that group was founded.

I never played/studied Tuba or Piano so reading below the 5-string B is foreign to me. Sight reading it at a rapid fugue tempo is just not happening. Even with bass parts that have sections in Treble or Tenor clef I have to learn the parts and even write in the notes above to I don't make mistakes i n rehearsals or concerts. Usually I have them memorized by concert time. This time around I am working with 4 different Orchestras and have 4 concerts all within a month. That is A LOT of music to work on. My reading is fairly good so all I ask of the people I work with is clean parts to play without confusion.

I will probably add the $5. to my cartage bill for buying the part when I turn my fee slip in. I just wont tell the conductor about it!
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Old 01-21-2012, 09:13 AM
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That was great that you made up a DB book for them. I like your ideas of selectively combining tuba and bassoon parts for an actual "part" that supports the various voicings of the band. Occasionally, when I've played in a band that was sparse, I've had to take bassoon or contra clarinet parts and add some missing texture if it wasn't cued in the tuba parts.

The best year I had in a community band was completely different, however. That particular year I played conventional tuba parts, but we had a guy who recognized it was about his last, as Parkinson's was getting him. He couldn't hold his trombone anymore, but he could balance a bass guitar in his lap. So we took the entire book and made parts for him to be able to play that last couple of years before he had to give it up completely. Some were transposed tuba parts, others were DB parts, a couple of contemporary pieces had actual bass guitar parts, etc. Just like low woodwinds add so much needed texture to tubas, his musicianship was of the highest caliber and really broadened the foundation of the band.

Have fun at your gig!
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pope View Post
That was great that you made up a DB book for them. I like your ideas of selectively combining tuba and bassoon parts for an actual "part" that supports the various voicings of the band. Occasionally, when I've played in a band that was sparse, I've had to take bassoon or contra clarinet parts and add some missing texture if it wasn't cued in the tuba parts.

The best year I had in a community band was completely different, however. That particular year I played conventional tuba parts, but we had a guy who recognized it was about his last, as Parkinson's was getting him. He couldn't hold his trombone anymore, but he could balance a bass guitar in his lap. So we took the entire book and made parts for him to be able to play that last couple of years before he had to give it up completely. Some were transposed tuba parts, others were DB parts, a couple of contemporary pieces had actual bass guitar parts, etc. Just like low woodwinds add so much needed texture to tubas, his musicianship was of the highest caliber and really broadened the foundation of the band.

Have fun at your gig!
There was only one piece that I had to make up from scratch with the bassoon and tuba that I recall. Maybe half the book or less possibly were Tuba parts. The band had 3 tubas and they could really play. The two baritone horn players were smokin' as well. One night I borrowed a part to make a copy as it was something I would love to be able to play and these guys read the stuff like the morning paper! One rehearsal when I came in early to set up they were re-auditioning one of the F.Horn players that had been there for years. The conductor told her she just wasn't cutting it anymore and let her go. This was the Quakertown Band founded in 1877, 2 years after the Batchelder bass I was using was made, no joke. I used an amp as well so wrong notes had no where to go. They played a few numbers of classical, big band jazz and the majority was band music with some um-pa stuff in there. I hadn't played in 15 years so I was just getting my chops back. Then I realized from playing the classical where I stood chops-wise and realized I needed to play in an orchestra to really get my hands and eyes back up to snuff and then some.

I called a local Orchestra and was informed they did have openings in D.Bass but an audition was required. I gave my resume from memory in an email and offered to just come and sight-read the rehearsal as I didn't have any of the required music for an audition having packed it all up 15 years ago. They agreed and the rest is history.

Last night I worked on the piece and I think I can pull it off with the written-over part I've doctored up. Like I said, until I play the first rehearsal I wont know if I can read that muddy scribble part at tempo and see my notes thru all of the other mumble-jumble on the page. If not, I buy and download the part on-line when I get back from rehearsal that night and be done with it.
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Old 01-22-2012, 02:56 PM
Don Higdon Don Higdon is offline
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Ken, I don't think a DB part exists. I went to Petrucci, which provides free downloads, but they don't have parts for this, so I can't help you. (I just wanted to remind you of what a great guy I am.)

Petrucci is a great resource, though; they have tons of free stuff. Go to
http://imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page
Click on 'Composers', click on the composer you want, and you'll get a list of available works.
The full score for the Holst shows a staff for "Basses", but just as you say, that's really tuba writing. One option is to click on 'Full Scores' and select the Condensed Score. It's like a piano reduction, but you'll see notes on the bass clef for which instruments are playing. It will be clean, and you can transpose up an octave and write in where necessary. That's the best I can do.
I'm doing some concert band stuff now, and I do this all the time. I simply can't sight transpose from below low C.
Good luck, you old goat.
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Old 01-22-2012, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Higdon View Post
Ken, I don't think a DB part exists. I went to Petrucci, which provides free downloads, but they don't have parts for this, so I can't help you. (I just wanted to remind you of what a great guy I am.)

Petrucci is a great resource, though; they have tons of free stuff. Go to
http://imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page
Click on 'Composers', click on the composer you want, and you'll get a list of available works.
The full score for the Holst shows a staff for "Basses", but just as you say, that's really tuba writing. One option is to click on 'Full Scores' and select the Condensed Score. It's like a piano reduction, but you'll see notes on the bass clef for which instruments are playing. It will be clean, and you can transpose up an octave and write in where necessary. That's the best I can do.
I'm doing some concert band stuff now, and I do this all the time. I simply can't sight transpose from below low C.
Good luck, you old goat.
Don, I thank you for joining the party even those dinner is finished.. lol

There IS actually a DB/String Bass part as I found a listing for 'optional String Bass' within the instrumentation, and I DID find it on line for purchase here; http://www.onlinesheetmusic.com/seco...s-p311160.aspx

I was just hoping to avoid transposing and re-writing some of the notes that I can't read being more than 2 ledger lines below the staff.

I have since written-up my part to play and have practiced it. I spent more time doing this than the time it takes to make the $4.95 and spend it on line for the part. Being that I will probably never play this again in my life and the fact that the Orchestra directors think the part I have is good enough which it's nit really, I didn't want to have to pay to play! But, I might just do it to take the strain off my eyes and brain and be a sport for once. Just don't let anyone know I can be a nice guy. That would just ruin my reputation altogether..

Still buddy, thanks for the reply anyways. It's always nice to hear from you. One chart I did in jazz band in high school was titled "Better Late Than Never".
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Old 01-25-2012, 12:38 AM
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Ok, I bought the part on-line and printed it out. The String Bass part is not 100% the same as the Tuba. In some places, the DB Tacits while the Tuba plays. Less work for me!

Reading the Tuba part all marked up caused me to stop several times when mis-reading the proper bass notes while trying to read the part in octaves, marked up or transposing mentally while not really knowing what register to play the DB part in.

With the actual DB part printed out, it's sooooooooooo much cleaner to read.

I'm all set now .. and $4.95 poorer..
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Old 01-25-2012, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
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I'm all set now .. and $4.95 poorer..
So, what part of Scotland are you from Ken?
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Old 01-25-2012, 10:26 PM
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So, what part of Scotland are you from Ken?
Scotland? Sorry, I don't get it.
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Old 01-26-2012, 03:34 AM
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Quote:
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Scotland? Sorry, I don't get it.
Ken, please let me try to explain. There are many old jokes about people from Scotland being thrifty (careful with money). Yes, I know that is a stereotype, like us people from Bahrain all having big noses, though maybe true in my case.
Pardon me for even suggesting it but, in most cultures, $4.95 is not much more than you would pay for a cup of coffee.
If you love to play the bass it is a small price, no?
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Old 01-26-2012, 05:41 AM
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Ken, please let me try to explain. There are many old jokes about people from Scotland being thrifty (careful with money). Yes, I know that is a stereotype, like us people from Bahrain all having big noses, though maybe true in my case.
Pardon me for even suggesting it but, in most cultures, $4.95 is not much more than you would pay for a cup of coffee.
If you love to play the bass it is a small price, no?
Where is Coffee $4.95?

It's about $1.45 around here.

The point was they would not buy me that part. Everyone else on the gig has a part for their own instrument. The conductors attitude was, use the Tuba part if you wanna play. If not, don't play. I have been Principal bass there for many years. I have never had to buy my own music for a concert.
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Old 01-26-2012, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
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Where is Coffee $4.95?

It's about $1.45 around here.

The point was they would not buy me that part. Everyone else on the gig has a part for their own instrument. The conductors attitude was, use the Tuba part if you wanna play. If not, don't play. I have been Principal bass there for many years. I have never had to buy my own music for a concert.
I pay $4 for a cup of coffee though, sorry, not American dollars.
"The conductor's attitude was, use the Tuba part if you wanna play. If not, don't play."
Excuse this suggestion but, what would he say if he realised the basses weren't playing? Is he paying you a good salary to play whatever he puts in front of you or is this more about not much money but musical enjoyment?
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Old 01-26-2012, 03:38 PM
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I pay $4 for a cup of coffee though, sorry, not American dollars.
"The conductor's attitude was, use the Tuba part if you wanna play. If not, don't play."
Excuse this suggestion but, what would he say if he realised the basses weren't playing? Is he paying you a good salary to play whatever he puts in front of you or is this more about not much money but musical enjoyment?
It's a wind & brass concert with one piece added for 1 bass and cello and one with optional bass. I am the optional bass and the bass with the cello. All other bass players are off for this concert as well as ALL other strings. Because I am there for one piece, he invited me for the other piece but they didn't have a string bass part, just the tuba parts. It wasn't until the Fall concert I even knew I was on this venue as it was billed as 'no strings' at all. It's not about the money, its about the music and the audience. If I have to read a jumbled part in 3 octaves to pick out my part, I would just bow out. For $4.95 of which I will ask for it back, I will play.
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Old 02-04-2012, 11:15 PM
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So, how did the gig go?
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Old 02-05-2012, 12:27 PM
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So, how did the gig go?
It went great. After the Thursday rehearsal the conductor sent me a link for yet another bass part (and cello) to print out for the Berlioz piece. So, one rehearsal and the hit. I read thru the score at the Thurs. rehearsal and I played a tiny bit in the 1st movement, tacit the 2nd and most of the 3rd. Talk about counting rests, lol.

I told the conductor this should be added to the audition list, "how to count and stay still for 20 minutes!"

Hey, they did Mars and Jupiter from the Planets, THAT I have played b4 but this was an arrangement without strings. These parts I would have loved to play but, most of what I did play was quite a challenge. Solo Bass with Brass and woodwinds, no where to hide. I used my Uebel bass (w/Jargar strings, blues) and that thing is LOUD and carried better than the Hart and Neuner. Go figure. maybe it's the design, shorter string length and/or restoration work. For now, if I don't need a low C-extension, I will play the Uebel for orchestra gigs. I might even put an extension on it as well in the near future.

Thanks for asking Scott.
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Old 02-05-2012, 01:05 PM
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wow, never heard of uebel basses.
you should play a gig with it here: http://www.uebelundgefaehrlich.com/v...tung-1857.html
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Old 02-05-2012, 03:46 PM
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"Uebel & Gefährlich"
Google translator had trouble dealing with the first word, is it "Mean and Dangerous"? It came up as "Nauseous and Dangerous".
What do they do at that club?

Anyway, well done with the gig Ken.
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