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  #1  
Old 09-17-2008, 08:42 AM
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Wink Gut strings Rock!!

Have you guys ever wonder why in the hell you can't get that sound that everyone dreams off? And why your fingers are always bleeding or have nasty caluses? Well, the answer is in those 20,000 pounds of torque metal strings that you have been pulling every night!! I had a long talk one day with my bass professor John Scheafer, who was teaching me Classical training at the time. He spoke of the days that metal strings came into effect in NYC and how he was very surprised as to how many bass player didn't like it at first.. The big complaint was the tension on the strings and the thin diameters it came with. He changed about 10 times before the orchestra convinced him into staying with metal. He had to get use to them quick and even though he bowed, it still was hard on the left hand and under the bow to get use too. I play Jazz ,Latin and Classical music, and I have no problems playing guts strings at all.. Many bass players have had the chance to try but give up the next day. It is a maintenance process that has to be learned in order to figure these suckers out. The diameters on the strings make a huge I MEAN HUGE difference in the sound and the way you play them. Diameter=G=2.15 D= 2.65 OR 2.70 A=2.55 E=3.15 If you ever get gut strings, try to get these diameters!!! These are the ones PC,Doug Watkins,John Scheafer,etc....had on their basses... Give it a try and let me know what the out come of this deal ends up to be!!
PS.
IF INTONATION BECOMES AN ISSUE USING GUTS ,PRATICE
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:24 AM
Phil Maneri Phil Maneri is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos Henriquez View Post
The diameters on the strings make a huge I MEAN HUGE difference in the sound and the way you play them. Diameter=G=2.15 D= 2.65 OR 2.70 A=2.55 E=3.15 If you ever get gut strings, try to get these diameters!
What is the unit of measure you are referring to here?
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  #3  
Old 09-17-2008, 12:47 PM
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Mm -------------
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Old 09-17-2008, 01:52 PM
Phil Maneri Phil Maneri is offline
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So...

G= .085"
D= .104"
A= .100" (wound I assume)
E= .124" (also wound)

In Gamut Gut strings that would be a Medium + G, a light D, and Medium A and E, more or less. Not a bad combo. Do you think the super light D helps with the choking thing that plain D strings can get? I totally agree with the heavier G string thing, I tried using the lighter ones and they just sort of lay there.

I will say from a fledgling arco guy that Guts are even harder for me to pull a good sound from than Spirocores. There are also times when I'm playing pizz I prefer a longer note. There are also times when I wouldn't mind having a clear note on the E and A strings above A and D respectively.

Opinion?
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  #5  
Old 09-17-2008, 10:16 PM
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Default Good post Carlos

But...

Dude I dig the way you play, and the way PC, La Faro, Wilbur and gazillion other great jazzers play. I gave guts a solid go for a while as well, but as weird as it may sound, it wasn't the tone I was looking for after all. Just a thought, but I think at some point I realized that I wanted my own tone, garnered from the inspiration of players from the past, but ultimately looking into the future with the most modern innovations in the instruments technology possible. I look to Rufus for this sort of artistic, forward thinking view. New stuff is out there. Please take no offense, your playing KILLS and I'm not insinuating you have a myopic view of strings, technique, etc. Just adding my .02.



All that being said, I did copy down those string guages for further experimentation, much to the chagrin of my fiancee and pocketbook.

Keep swingin' Brother Carlos, I'll keep listening!

P.S. Tell Printup Kris from Austin says "Hello"

Last edited by Adam Booker; 09-17-2008 at 10:27 PM.
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Old 09-23-2008, 06:27 PM
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DARN IT DARN IT DARN IT!!!! Carlos and Phil have me curious about guts now. Hey, at least I can claim academic honesty in this discussion. Thanks guys...
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Old 09-24-2008, 07:29 AM
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Thumbs up gut sets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos Henriquez View Post
Have you guys ever wonder why in the hell you can't get that sound that everyone dreams off? And why your fingers are always bleeding or have nasty caluses? Well, the answer is in those 20,000 pounds of torque metal strings that you have been pulling every night!! I had a long talk one day with my bass professor John Scheafer, who was teaching me Classical training at the time. He spoke of the days that metal strings came into effect in NYC and how he was very surprised as to how many bass player didn't like it at first.. The big complaint was the tension on the strings and the thin diameters it came with. He changed about 10 times before the orchestra convinced him into staying with metal. He had to get use to them quick and even though he bowed, it still was hard on the left hand and under the bow to get use too. I play Jazz ,Latin and Classical music, and I have no problems playing guts strings at all.. Many bass players have had the chance to try but give up the next day. It is a maintenance process that has to be learned in order to figure these suckers out. The diameters on the strings make a huge I MEAN HUGE difference in the sound and the way you play them. Diameter=G=2.15 D= 2.65 OR 2.70 A=2.55 E=3.15 If you ever get gut strings, try to get these diameters!!! These are the ones PC,Doug Watkins,John Scheafer,etc....had on their basses... Give it a try and let me know what the out come of this deal ends up to be!!
PS.
IF INTONATION BECOMES AN ISSUE USING GUTS ,PRATICE
Can't help but agree - it always interested me that players used to the tone of gut strings didn't notice that something missing when they changed to metal in the early days of phasing out gut? Reminds me of the difference when vinyl gave way to CD - tone and sound quality went down the drain for the sake of convenience.
Just a quick question or 2 - did you try different sets of gut to arrive at your current setup? Any set up advice specific for gut? I am using Chorda set and its the strongest tone of all the gut line ups I have tried to date, sounds great arco or pizz IMHO (liked Dlugolecki too but only tried D and G). Do you know if the jazz players and classical players at time of PC etc used similar gut sets? Best and original hybrid strings were gut so I imagine....
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Old 09-24-2008, 08:37 AM
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They all used gut string however, they had the option for different diameters on the strings which made it easier to play and bow. Chorda strings are great but they are to thick when out of the original package. I have Pirastro make me a special diameter so that it becomes easier for me to play. Damian's strings are the best in reference to its quality and art. Making strings by hand is a special art and it produces a special sound.
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Old 09-24-2008, 08:57 PM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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Carlito, you play the crap out of the bass! But I hope you are not saying in your opening of this thread that everyone should play gut strings. There are many great bassists whose sound is a steel-string sound, and fantastic. Dave Holland, Peter Washington, Michael Moore, John Clayton, just to name a few. I dig gut strings too, though I don't personally care for the sonority or feel of round-wound A and E strings. Something about the overtones bugs me. I used to play Golden Spiral G and D with steel A and E, and it worked pretty well for me.

Anyway, thanks for classing up this place, and keep playing great music!
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Old 09-25-2008, 03:00 AM
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Well, not really if we start comparing! However, I do stress the physical side of playing metal strings that happens with students wanting that pure sound. Golden Spiral strings were cool but very hard to bow on, plus the cross over with the bow on the A & E string really hurts. I really would like to stress a point ! Their is no way you can compare the sound of metal and guts!! I'm sorry!! You can't find many players playing gut because it is to hard for them first to get a great sound with the bow plus they don't understand about sound anymore because technology has covered that part with the amp..The sound factor with strings is Organic and very pure in all aspects!!! Example-I never heard of a African Drum head skin being changed to a synthetic skin, the head masters won't allow it. Example- Many can go out and get a Honda or Toyota etc.. and drive it with no problems however, you don't find many driving a Ferrari, Benz or Porche etc.... What I'm trying to say is that the pure sound of the bass is achieved in its original state.. Yes, they are some great bass players that use metal strings and they sound great.. What I'm trying to explain is much deeper to understand... If you want that sound, you have to go that route, sorry!!

Peace!!
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Old 09-25-2008, 08:16 AM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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I totally agree that if you want the sound of a gut-strung bass there is absolutely no substitute. Nothing, not Velvets, not Evahs, sounds anything like a gut string. But not everybody wants that gut sound. And the sound of steel or synthetic strings is not impure, just different. Hey, car engines were originally built with carburetors; that does not mean a car with fuel injection is wrong. It's progress.

Like I said earlier, I like gut strings. I also like metal and synthetic strings.

Peace to you too my friend!
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Old 09-25-2008, 09:34 AM
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Talking Lol..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
I totally agree that if you want the sound of a gut-strung bass there is absolutely no substitute. Nothing, not Velvets, not Evahs, sounds anything like a gut string. But not everybody wants that gut sound. And the sound of steel or synthetic strings is not impure, just different. Hey, car engines were originally built with carburetors; that does not mean a car with fuel injection is wrong. It's progress.

Like I said earlier, I like gut strings. I also like metal and synthetic strings.

Peace to you too my friend!
Spoken like a true Politician..
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Old 09-25-2008, 11:32 AM
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Its so nice to know that you agree with me Arnold!! However, the state of progress is not always a form of achievement!! Yes, the car has been a form of progress for us in terms of living and life but when Art is involved their is no replacement for progress. The progress in Art is from the Artist not the instrument or its set-ups!! remember that!!
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Old 09-25-2008, 11:41 AM
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Wink progress?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos Henriquez View Post
Its so nice to know that you agree with me Arnold!! However, the state of progress is not always a form of achievement!! Yes, the car has been a form of progress for us in terms of living and life but when Art is involved their is no replacement for progress. The progress in Art is from the Artist not the instrument or its set-ups!! remember that!!
Progress? You want Progress?

Out here Progress is a Horse & Buggie..
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Old 09-25-2008, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos Henriquez View Post
Its so nice to know that you agree with me Arnold!! However, the state of progress is not always a form of achievement!! Yes, the car has been a form of progress for us in terms of living and life but when Art is involved their is no replacement for progress. The progress in Art is from the Artist not the instrument or its set-ups!! remember that!!

I agree with this sentiment, but some artists find artistic progress only when the tools of the trade catch up to what's happening in their head. Case in point, electronic or electro-acoustic music. Whether or not it's your particular cup of musical tea, it's still an art form in it's own right and most electronic music composers I know jump at the latest developments as they become available because the technology has caught up to their ideas. In some cases, I'm sure the bass has done quite the same thing. I'm sure you would be hard pressed to find a symphony cat using plain gut on a regular basis, because the whole sound of the symphony is louder (due in no small part to technology). Indeed, the advancement of technology in regards to the drum set, which did not exist as an instrument 100 years ago prompted the need for more volume on stage, hence amplifiers, metal strings, et al.

However, as Wynton so eloquently put, "The progression of jazz is like taking a bucket of water from a well. Ocassionally you have to return to the well for more water." I do not view the use of gut strings as grossly anachronistic any more than a performance of Beethoven should be considered backward thinking. Good music is good music, and the bulk of its history on the double bass was played on guts. In fact, I have some on the way (in no small part inspired by this thread)!

Thanks for the inspiration Carlos. I may need some help with these things too, if would be so kind?
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Old 09-26-2008, 12:01 AM
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I like that one Kenny
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Old 10-01-2008, 05:30 PM
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I am definetly with Carlos on the gut strng topic. I had weichs, then obligatos, and now pirastro olivs for a,d,g and obligato on the E. The gut sounds great !!! Not a fan of the pure gut, I like the gut wrapped in steel for a bit of growl. As time progressed I wanted a woodier and woodier sound. I got rid of the pick up and now use an AMT microphone exsculsively. The sound i have had in my head is now a reality. And for the salsa enthusiasts, AMPEG BABY BASS + GUT STRINGS = SWINGGGGGGGGGGG. Many say it doesn't matter what type of string you use on the baby bass because of the pickup design but I hear a huge difference. I have 2 Ampegs & a Ray Ramirez Baby. The ampegs have the guts and Ramirez a superflexible solo set. All 3 basses sound wonderful but the ampeg/gut combo sounds much different than the Ramirez. Carlito what do you think of baby bass plus gut strings ?
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Old 10-06-2008, 12:45 AM
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Default chorda string guages

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos Henriquez View Post
They all used gut string however, they had the option for different diameters on the strings which made it easier to play and bow. Chorda strings are great but they are to thick when out of the original package. I have Pirastro make me a special diameter so that it becomes easier for me to play. Damian's strings are the best in reference to its quality and art. Making strings by hand is a special art and it produces a special sound.
Standard Chordas are very good strings but my experience is also that they are too heavy - in particuar the D and E. Since Carlos has noted the specs of diameters which he feels are ideal, will Pirastro perhaps make that set available to the public? Otherwise the only way to buy particular guages is to go to the hand made artist strings such as DD and Gamut?
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Old 10-06-2008, 01:04 AM
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Cool will they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidseidel View Post
Standard Chordas are very good strings but my experience is also that they are too heavy - in particuar the D and E. Since Carlos has noted the specs of diameters which he feels are ideal, will Pirastro perhaps make that set available to the public? Otherwise the only way to buy particular guages is to go to the hand made artist strings such as DD and Gamut?
I asked Pirastro that exact question and mentioned the special gauges. I was told they are made to order for him for Jazz and they sent me the normal Orchestra set. Well, if Carlos got those specs from John Schaeffer, the former NY Phil Principal then I would have to assume they are Double Bass gauges and not specific to Jazz. In fact, they are probably for Orchestra if that's what Schaeffer recommended.

Carlos? Please ask John so we don't have to assume. Then, maybe we can pressure Pirastro to make them available. The Chordas look like good quality strings. They just seem a little heavy to me as well.
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Old 10-07-2008, 02:28 AM
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Default chorda too heavy?

Yes Ken exactly what I was thinking. Pirastro kindly sent me the regular set to try as well - as mentioned I do like them but not sure what gauges they exactly are, anyway the D and E seem especially too thick. I looked up the gauges of dlugolecki and he has a converter there. The figures Carlos gives are pretty much the middle of DD's range which he refers to as not too heavy not too light. The equivalents in his sizing are G - 43 D - 54 A - 51 E - 63
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