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Old 02-15-2007, 09:14 PM
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Lightbulb What's in a Restoration?

I am starting this Thread to bring to light the various things that get done during a full or partial restoration. Depending on the actual Bass under the knife, it may need some or all of the mentioned procedures if not more. I am calling out here to Arnold, Jeff, Bob, Nick and all the other practitioners of this field to share and discuss their views, knowledge and methods if they are willing to share them. Some of the Luthiers might have a special method or formula they wish to keep secret so we must respect their choice to keep any secrets proprietary to their trade.

Over the Years I have had several Basses that had full or partial Restorations. Many of these are on my website but a few of them pre-date the internet and have long since found new homes as well.

These are some of the operations that my Basses have had; Scroll repair, Neck Graft, Tops reshaped from sinkage, Re-graduation of one or both plates, cracks repaired (on Top, Back or Ribs), Neck stand re-set, Block cut, string length altered, Varnish touch up, Worm damage repaired, New Bass Bar, New cross bars (all or just some), Bass Bar re-shaped, Cosmetic plates on Back and Shoulders replaced or added, New Neck block, New Tail Block, Corner Blocks repaired or re-placed, New lining, New Fingerboard, Scroll cheeks added, Tuner holes plugged and re-bushed, Tuners replaced, All set up items (including Bridge, adjusters of all types, saddle, tailpiece, nut, endpin unit etc.), Purfling repaired or replaced, Half edging, re-edging, New Corner tips, inlaid Breast patches, Inlaid Sound Post patch, Wood grafts in cracks, lower wings added for yield, button grafts, block area grafts, Ribs shortened at Block for Rib/plate overhang shortage, Rib punctures pieced back together from 'puzzle pieces', Ribs and blocks re-leveled for top/back fit, Neck block re-built, 4 to 5-strings conversion, 5 to 4-string conversion, old repairs un-done and re-done (a lot of that!) and 3 different C-extension types added on several Basses over the years by 3 different luthiers to name a few things here...

Please fell free to ask, discuss or contribute to this tread in any way. All levels of knowledge or lack thereof welcomed. We can discuss any repairs or restorations you have had seen or may have in the future right here with some of the best guys in the biz.

If you have a Bass that needs repairing and would like advice before you take it to wherever, please start a new thread with as many pictures as possible as well as all the information you can tell us about your Bass and what you think it might need. You can expect then to get loads of valuable information on how to approach the job needed as well as being prepared mentally and financially before she goes under the knife. Often a Bass needs more than what is expected from the outside. On occasion, it needs a bit less.
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Old 02-16-2007, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post

Please fell free to ask, discuss or contribute to this tread in any way. All levels of knowledge or lack thereof welcomed. We can discuss any repairs or restorations you have had seen or may have in the future right here with some of the best guys in the biz.
OK, so the door is open for me here. I'll go with the "lack thereof welcomed"! Recently there was a topic discussed not so much here about a Prescott bass that was restored by Lou DiLeone. Most of us know of Lou and he is very respected as an expert in his field. He made several changes to the Prescott and in general I would say that almost all of these are definitely changes that made the bass more useful, better sounding, more easily maintained in the future, and more modern in features. Among the changes were the installation of a neck block, new neck grafting back the original scroll, converting the pegbox from 3 to 4 string configuration, new tailpiece with 4 holes. Im guessing, but I don't know, at least it is plausible that it got a new bass bar, some regraduation and other changes. It also got new varnish. I don't want to start a heated debate, just hear some knowledgeable responses about rebuilding / restoring a bass in such a radical fashion. To me, that bass is a Lou DiLeone bass made from Prescott parts now. Not that there is anything deleterious in that action or anything negative about it in my estimation. It is just giving credit to Lou instead of Abe for the instrument's current sound and characteristics? Any commments?
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Old 02-16-2007, 02:00 PM
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Cool Abe?

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Originally Posted by David Powell View Post
OK, so the door is open for me here. I'll go with the "lack thereof welcomed"! Recently there was a topic discussed not so much here about a Prescott bass that was restored by Lou DiLeone. Most of us know of Lou and he is very respected as an expert in his field. He made several changes to the Prescott and in general I would say that almost all of these are definitely changes that made the bass more useful, better sounding, more easily maintained in the future, and more modern in features. Among the changes were the installation of a neck block, new neck grafting back the original scroll, converting the pegbox from 3 to 4 string configuration, new tailpiece with 4 holes. I'm guessing, but I don't know, at least it is plausible that it got a new bass bar, some regraduation and other changes. It also got new varnish. I don't want to start a heated debate, just hear some knowledgeable responses about rebuilding / restoring a bass in such a radical fashion. To me, that bass is a Lou DiLeone bass made from Prescott parts now. Not that there is anything deleterious in that action or anything negative about it in my estimation. It is just giving credit to Lou instead of Abe for the instrument's current sound and characteristics? Any comments?
First off, in my opinion for what it's worth, that Bass is NOT a Prescott Bass. What is it then? I think it is a Yankee Prescott "School" Bass made by someone who 'copied' or was 'influenced' by his work or model. The Scroll is not a Prescott Scroll and the FFs are not Prescott either. The body, well that is a Gamba shaped Bass that could be made by any 19th century Bass maker.

Now, my Prescott, a real one was restored by Arnold who only did what was needed. I have since sold that Bass by the way. The Varnish, corner blocks, tail block and FFs and Scroll were all in its original condition. The Scroll needed repair and a new Neck graft. The Bass was cut from the C-bouts over 100 years ago and was converted to a 4-string. A Dearborn Label was in the Bass as well and I suspect the did some of these modifications for a customer. The Varnish is more of a stain and Shellac than Varnish that we know of from Europe either Spirit or Oil based. Arnold cleaned it as best he could and did minimal touch-up only. All the crossbars were replaced and only one corner block repaired or replaced (not sure which). The Bassbar was not the original but the second installed as we could see a scar from the original next to it. The Top was in perfect shape with the FFs wings still attached so he just trimmed the Bar slightly as it was on the crude side look wise. It was not even completly sanded so you can see the old oxidation where it was left alone.

A restoration should only fix what needs to fixed and modifications kept to a minimum in order to keep the integrity of the maker. Exceptions being re-finish IF is was done before and botched. Re-graduate only if it needs to be from over thickness and sound loss or add breast patches to restore overly thinned wood and then re-graduate with the added wood. Block or shoulder cut only if the Bass was made unplayable by today’s standards and/or the string length is too long for today’s orchestral players. Change Tuners or Tailpiece IF they are broken, don't work or don't match the Bass.

Currently, I have several old or original non-ebony Tailpieces on some of my Basses. These Basses are the Gilkes, Batchelder, Martini and Cornerless Italian. They will remain on the Bass as long as I own them unless something breaks beyond repair.
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Old 02-16-2007, 09:43 PM
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Thank You!!!! Mr. Smith! You weren't there to comment, and I knew it would be well worth hearing. I did follow the posts on the restoration of your Prescott on the "Yankee Bass" thread.

I really don't know if Lou changed the bar or not. So don't quote me on that one. The big controversy was over the varnish. I just find that kind of ironic considering the more serious changes, and now I think it is even more ironic if this is, as you say, not really a Prescott.
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Old 02-16-2007, 10:03 PM
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Cool TB..

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Originally Posted by David Powell View Post
Thank You!!!! Mr. Smith! You weren't there to comment, and I knew it would be well worth hearing. I did follow the posts on the restoration of your Prescott on the "Yankee Bass" thread.

I really don't know if Lou changed the bar or not. So don't quote me on that one. The big controversy was over the varnish. I just find that kind of ironic considering the more serious changes, and now I think it is even more ironic if this is, as you say, not really a Prescott.
I have been banned from posting over on TB ever since I dared them to be fair, honest and truthful but the fact remains that it's a cash-cow for paul and he wont let any threads or posts interfere with his advertisers. One of my posts was deleted for no reason other than thru a light joke on the theme set, incriminated an advertiser. The one who owns ALL the banner ads there or at least 90% of it.

Trust me, if that was a Prescott it would have Prescott FFs and Scroll and not a partial look-a-like. On the Bassbar, it's no biggie. It should only be changed if it need to and at that point the Top should be fully restored. I would rather have 20% original varnish left and the rest touched up and matched under a clear coat then to see any bass re-finished to look pretty. I know some out here have a past and a love/respect with Lou. I have talked with him on the phone a few years ago about the origin of my Mystery Bass and he was a gentleman 100% of the way. As far as the re-fin practice, I think it's a bad habbit that he's stuck in in his mind. Old dog/new tricks syndrome maybe.

Hey, at least he gave Arnold some help when he started out in the biz so he can't be all that bad if a Luthier at that high level respects him. On the Prescott naming, more shops make that mistake for one reason or another than shops that stick to the facts for accuracy rather than the easy way out or for profit. Sometimes it's best to say "I'm not sure who really made it 'cause I wasn't there" or "School of _____"!
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Old 02-16-2007, 10:50 PM
Bob Branstetter Bob Branstetter is offline
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"Restoration" is a word that I've come to despise when I see it used by people who think that restoration consists of buying a can of paint stripper and a can of varnish at Lowe's or Home Depot and then completing the job over a weekend.

Real professional "Restoration" can mean different things depending on who the restoration is being done for. A true restoration, the kind that a museum would want, would be returning the instrument to near the condition that it left the maker's hands or at least as close as is practical considering the modifications that might have been made over the life of the instrument. (Just try to find a Stradivarius violin with the original neck.)

Restoration for an instrument that is going to be played by a professional player is an altogether different thing. You won't find too many 3 string basses being used today. Neck grafts to change the string length and modifications to change the neck angle and over-stand are the norm. Even cutting down the body is considered acceptable. The emphasis is on making the instrument structurally sound while making the instrument meet modern playing standards and retaining most of what the original maker created. In truth, most of the time, we do what the owner wants done even if it is not necessarily the way we would like to do it. (Few luthiers are so well off that they can afford to turn away big money making jobs.)

Refinishing is something we all try to avoid for all but the most extreme cases, but there is disagreement among luthiers as to the type of varnish that should be used for "restorations". On old basses, the goal for most of us when doing retouching or when refinishing MUST be done, is to use a varnish that is as close to the original appearance as possible since it's anybody's guess as to the actual composition of the original varnish. On some of the modern factory produced basses, like the Kays, we may know the composition of the finish, yet some try to "improve" them by using oil varnishes. I still enjoy taking an old Kay or King and doing my best to return it to near-mint appearance using the same Nitrocellulose lacquer and aniline dyes as were used when they were made and even reproducing the painted purfling. To me, that is a restoration even though the bass may not be considered old by some purists.
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Last edited by Bob Branstetter; 02-19-2007 at 07:49 PM. Reason: minor clarifications
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Old 02-19-2007, 01:07 PM
David Hosking David Hosking is offline
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Default Neck radii over the centuries

Ken,
The work in the neck graft photo looks classy.
Have neck radii changed much over the centuries? David
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Old 02-19-2007, 02:57 PM
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Cool Neck Graft..

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Originally Posted by David Hosking View Post
Ken,
The work in the neck graft photo looks classy.
Have neck radii changed much over the centuries? David
That was my Prescott. Arnold did a great job keeping the shapes original. If you look close thru the Varnish you can see his work next to Abe's.
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