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Old 11-03-2010, 04:48 PM
Adrian Levi Adrian Levi is offline
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Default too much wood ?

I wonder if anyone give me a little advice on my 7/8 French bass (most build characteristics seem to point to it being French).

I had this bass ' repaired' by someone a while back who used overly long whole linen strips to hold cracks in the top together.
Unfortunately too much stress caused by the linen (glued in a perfect line parallel to the grain) opened a nice long new crack and so I decided to open the bass up and do a relatively simple repair by removing the linen ,cleaning ,re-gluing and cleating the top where needed.

I have not played this bass for a while as the sound although loud , just never quite did it for jazz , it always was 'quite' good with a bow but for pizz was pretty thumpy , dark and unalive .

On closer inspection I saw the back had started to come off and so I decided to start by taking the back off first , especially seeing that whoever took it off before me did not glue it back 100% straight.

When I looked inside I was really surprised to see the size of the lining in the c bouts on the back side of the bass were 10mm thick and about 5mm thick all round the rest of the bass . All the linings including the thick ones mentioned are about 35mm wide . Also the linings were wedged tightly into the edges of the corner blocks.

The corner blocks are elaborately carved to 'take' the extra fat lining as you can see by the pictures . The corner blocks are also very wide and do cover a substantial part of the actual c-bout ribs . I have already removed the back linings as I feel that they are too big and must be cut down.

The bass is very well carved and the wood is of a very good grade (maple back and ribs), but I feel that there is simply too much wood on this instrument for it to vibrate. Any advice would be great....
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  #2  
Old 11-03-2010, 06:59 PM
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That lining does look pretty fat, and the blocks do extend down into the c-bout. I don't think I would have a problem with them coming down that far, but I'm confused as to what the second photo shows; how are the linings are let into the blocks? What is all that stuff in the center of the rib?
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Old 11-04-2010, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne holmes View Post
don't take off the top and back at the same time.
bah, where's the fun in that?
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Old 11-04-2010, 01:55 AM
Adrian Levi Adrian Levi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Erickson View Post
That lining does look pretty fat, and the blocks do extend down into the c-bout. I don't think I would have a problem with them coming down that far, but I'm confused as to what the second photo shows; how are the linings are let into the blocks? What is all that stuff in the center of the rib?
The lining has been removed already , so what can see is only a glue and dirt stripe where the lining used to be .

Glued on linen is what you are seeing in the rib centre .
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Old 11-04-2010, 02:02 AM
Adrian Levi Adrian Levi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne holmes View Post
As Arnold would say- don't take off the top and back at the same time.

I would start by removing the back only and remove all the extra cleats that look wrong, ie, too big, whatever. Get the back in good shape, reglue it and then do the sides and top. I have heard our more experienced people like Ken and Arnold say to remove or thin or do something with big linings that are typical of French basses.
Be careful - remember you make a living mostly with your hands playing .

Hope this helps- now i will look at your pictures. Good to have you back on the block.

Oh, I see you still have the top on - my bad
this time I'm going to try my damnedest to keep all my fingers intact
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Old 11-04-2010, 02:17 AM
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That linen repair looks OK to me. And the blocks, OK so they're nice and solid, but they don't look too heavy to me. They look well made; I'd leave them. Apparently the linings for the C bouts were typically sawn rather than bent which is why they are thicker. Fairly easy to replace but I'd rather replace them on a free edge than one glued to top because clamping is much simpler! The other linings can be thinned carefully with a plane, but I doubt whether these changes alone will make much of a difference.

Have you posted pics elsewhere of the bass so I can see the button/scroll/ffs?
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Old 11-04-2010, 06:28 AM
Adrian Levi Adrian Levi is offline
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Have you posted pics elsewhere of the bass so I can see the button/scroll/ffs?[/quote]

Her are some pics . The linings are separated from the ribs in many places and will need to be removed and re-attached. The neck block is also not in great shape and I see that the neck foot bottom is not flush with the neck block floor .
Hmm - looks like more repairs than I thought . I cant believe that the 'bass mechanic' gave this bass back to me with a smile and said "now that its repaired all we have to do is a little tweaking to get her sounding great"
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Old 11-04-2010, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian Levi View Post
Here are some pics . The linings are separated from the ribs in many places and will need to be removed and re-attached. The neck block is also not in great shape and I see that the neck foot bottom is not flush with the neck block floor .
Hmm - looks like more repairs than I thought . I cant believe that the 'bass mechanic' gave this bass back to me with a smile and said "now that its repaired all we have to do is a little tweaking to get her sounding great"
What happened to the varnish? That hurts the value usually unless it was already gone by someone before and you had no choice. Still, original varnish should never be stripped in my opinion. The lining is about 2-4x what it needs. have that width and less thickness. It only needs to aid the plate-rib glue surface. The excess dampens the tone. Most likely this is a Mirecourt factory bass and was made on a 'Friday' from the looks of that neck/block fit..
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Old 11-04-2010, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
What happened to the varnish? That hurts the value usually unless it was already gone by someone before and you had no choice. Still, original varnish should never be stripped in my opinion. The lining is about 2-4x what it needs. have that width and less thickness. It only needs to aid the plate-rib glue surface. The excess dampens the tone. Most likely this is a Mirecourt factory bass and was made on a 'Friday' from the looks of that neck/block fit..
Sadly when I got the bass it had been re-varnished with a color that was horribly red and so I have stripped the bass and will redo it after its playable.
The scroll may have original varnish under some clear coat of something , and the small piece of color on the button I think may be original .

That neck was knocked out of the neck block and was reset like that by the aforementioned 'bass mechanic' . As a matter of fact the very reason that I am learning to repair instruments is because of how much money and time I waisted trying to have this bass repaired.
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Old 11-04-2010, 11:38 AM
Adrian Levi Adrian Levi is offline
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ken , is it possible to hazard a guess as to the age of the bass ?I'm guessing
early 1900s ..

Also I'm guessing that one cant expect a huge difference in tone by merely cutting the linings down ?

Could it be worth it sound wise to replace or cut down the end block.
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Old 11-04-2010, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian Levi View Post
ken , is it possible to hazard a guess as to the age of the bass ?I'm guessing
early 1900s ..

Also I'm guessing that one cant expect a huge difference in tone by merely cutting the linings down ?

Could it be worth it sound wise to replace or cut down the end block.
The end block has water damage, maybe from a Dampit. Seal the cracks with something on the block and don't trim too much from it or, make a new block fresh.

The linings being smaller will free up the Rib vibrations and it WILL make a noticeable difference in the sound/tone. Give any bass going thru a full restoration from 2-5 years to settle in with the sound it will have going forward. Re-repairing after a big restoration within that time is sometimes done as the bass settles from all the work as well.
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Old 11-05-2010, 05:36 AM
Adrian Levi Adrian Levi is offline
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Another question regarding this bass ... Is there an 'ideal' when it comes to top thickness ? The top on this bass measures 11mm and then graduates quite quickly to 9mm and then to about 8mm about halfway from centre seam to just before the ribs . This is a 4/4 or 7/8 size instrument so the plates would be slightly thicker than a 3/4 .

The reason Im asking all these questions is that this is one heavy mother of a bass , the heaviest I have seen . The neck is also thick.

Im just intrigued by the fact that it is an instrument that has been built/carved well and with obvious care, but seems to lack the finesse in design needed to bring out the best possible sound
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Old 11-05-2010, 05:50 AM
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the Spruce top is the lightest wood in the bass; the back and ribs and neck will contribute to most of the weight. That said, it sounds thick; most basses have graduations down to 6mm or less just inside the ribs. But it depends a bit on the wood.
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Old 11-05-2010, 08:18 AM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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That bass bar is way too long.
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Old 11-05-2010, 10:25 AM
Adrian Levi Adrian Levi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
That bass bar is way too long.
Arnold do you mean that the bar is too long overall , here is a pic of the whole bar ...
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Old 11-05-2010, 01:07 PM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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I may be mistaken. In one of the earlier pictures it looked like the bass bar went almost to the tailblock. In your new picture that does not look to be the case.
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Old 11-13-2010, 05:29 AM
Adrian Levi Adrian Levi is offline
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I'm about to put new linings on this bass / I have a choice of spruce , willow or
maple . I'm thinking spruce at this stage , but still have a couple of questions that maybe someone help me with .

Firstly I am still intrigued by the size of the corner blocks . The block surface to rib contact is 3 inches (+- 8cm ) see pic. The blocks are also pretty thick .

Secondly , should the linings be 'jammed' as they were into the blocks ? Surely the extra pressure will inhibit vibration transfer ?

This bass has such a huge sound that I believe she may have the potential to be something special ..........
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Old 11-13-2010, 06:41 PM
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Those blocks look fine. Personally, I wouldn't mess with them. Linings are normally butted up against the blocks or even let into them. That's how they are supposed to be. I'd use willow or maple linings.
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Old 11-14-2010, 02:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker View Post
Those blocks look fine. Personally, I wouldn't mess with them. Linings are normally butted up against the blocks or even let into them. That's how they are supposed to be. I'd use willow or maple linings.
Hi Matthew , I'm interested why you wouldn't use spruce.Is it because of the differential shrinkage potential between the maple and spruce?

Also a lot of makers and repairers mention how important it is to try and not inhibit vibration transfer of the ribs by adding too much repair material or making the ribs thick etc etc ... so I'm questioning the fact that on this particular bass the ribs were wedged between the blocks creating pressure against the ribs , surely its better practice to just 'bump' the edging up against the blocks neatly .... or perhaps there really isn't a right or wrong answer after all
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Old 11-14-2010, 02:50 AM
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I don't like the idea of linings butting up to the blocks; to me, it just seems like asking for the ends to come loose as things shrink and they get pushed up tight to the blocks. I'd rather see them let well into the block so that they're securely tied down to the rib. Seems more structurally sound to have the linings secure to the blocks, too.
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