Endpin talk...

[Nick Hart]

On the idea of endpins, In CCM this year Mr. Laszlo imported some titanium endpins and these things sounded amazing. It seemed that for the people with play with short endpins, the sound increased drastically, for somebody like me who is 6'2" with a big bass that needs to be elevated, it helped but wasn't worth the $160 dollars. These titanium endpins really did wonders for some basses, especially those in the 20k price range. Made them sound older and a much more rich and bassy sound. It is something to check out for all those looking for an endpin change.

[Charles Federle]

Titanium is something I have wanted to try for a long time, but have never been able to get ahold of. Is there any contact information for anyone wanting to try them ?

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

What are you guys playing that all of a sudden a regular endpin is not good enough 150 years after Dragonetti?

Are you serious? Many many things are different about the equipment we use now and what dragonetti used. Steel strings, modern bows, functional tuning machines, 4 strings, 5 strings...

Just because a straight end pin is the way it was done then doesn't make it the best way!

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Brian Roessler

Are you serious? Many many things are different about the equipment we use now and what dragonetti used. Steel strings, modern bows, functional tuning machines, 4 strings, 5 strings...

Just because a straight end pin is the way it was done then doesn't make it the best way!

Ok, I agree with you on the 'since then' thing to a degree but lets look at a few things closer. Since then, these things have been developed and became the standard with little change insight;

4-strings tuned in fourths standardized mainly by W.Hause, the first method for Bass (Prague School, Wenzel Hause, Josef Hrabe, Anton Slama, Emanuel Storch, Franz Simandl, etc). The fourths were in use in London but with 3-strings while France was using 5ths with 3-strings but poorly. Visiting German Orchestras to London changed their fate as did London Orchestras later playing in France.

Steel Strings, Orchestra Tuning.

Solo rep required for every Orchestra Bassist

Straight Steel Rod Endpin and now some CF

Adjustable Bridge feet used by many in USA but not all and rarely in Europe as it is needed less.

Mixed fingerings and Pivots as well as using the 3rd finger in the first 6 positions.

Tuning Machines have been around over 200 years in good working order. I saw a Ceruti Bass recently with it's original Gears (c.1800 or earlier).. Never broke, never replaced!

4-string Basses were used in the Prague School almost from the beginning and 5s in the late 18th century. I think it was the 19th century where the 3-string was strong in Italy, France and the UK. We rarely see any Germanic type Basses made for domestic use made originally in 3-strings. I think 19th century USA was mixed as well between imports and Yankee made Basses.

Low C-Extensions replacing 5s in mainly USA but other places as well. Some players just play the Lows up and octave no matter what. 5s are in use sparsely in USA but very common as needed in Central Europe and fairly common in other parts of the world including Japan and Australia.

Now... If you are talking about Solo playing, YES, there is a whole bunch of new things brewing like those from Rabbath and others. My main topic is for standard BASS playing either in Jazz or in Orchestra.

One time a person came in with a nice old Germanic Bass and handed it to me to try right after putting the bent Endpin in. I couldn't even find a way to comfortably hold it much less play it.

Maybe it's the case of 'old dog, new trick' kinda thing..

[David Powell]

Well, I haven't done much experimenting with different types of endpins. I'm still trying to figure out where I want the thing let out to (solid steel pin currently). I'm at least down to about an inch of length between two detente positions and I go back and forth with that. My right hand likes one position and my left the other. I think if I always played arco, it would stay in one place and if I always played pizz it would be in the other. So maybe I should just get a custom pin made that splits the difference?

I do think KC strings reported some block problems with the Laborie style pin on a TB thread. As far as the separated attachment of the tail gut and pin, the first bass I saw this on was a very innovative bass that I thought was made by a maker named Hamm. But now I can find nothing on the web about that bass. I think I might have some photos on my old PC, but anyway the pin and tail gut were among a few other things done differently. The neck angle was adjustable. Does anyone remember that DB? It was kind of angular at the scroll, had unusual sort of art deco looking f's. I want to say the maker was Charles Hamm, but Google shows nothing. Anyway it is interesting to learn that this is not a new idea, seaparating the endpin hole from the tailgut stay.

The wooden pin idea sounds interesting to me, but when we get to a rubber foot, I kind of wonder if any differences are going to go beyond that piece of rubber. I use soft rubber shock mounts for microphones and these are very effective dampers of sound transmission. Practical experience respected, I don't see how the pin material could do much to increase transmission of the sound to the floor if there is a rubber tip on it. The most experienced band leader I work with isolates almost all of the amps and cabinets with soft rubber pads like those that one would find in a high foot traffic area. He claims that everything (cabinets and electronics racks) benefits from isolation. It is obvious why microphones need this, but perhaps other components benefit as well?

As far as flooring, I have noticed that carpet just kills sound in general, although I don't know about the casters vs. rubber feet phenomenon because I have just not tried a cabinet both ways.

[Ken Smith]

So Steel Rods, CF Rods and Wood Endpins will all have the same sound is the same rubber tip is used?

Maybe someone could record the frequency off the Rod between the socket and the Tip and see what the differences are sing the exact same Bass is anyone here can do that.

David, with your 2-height needs for Pizz and Bowing I would pull it out to the tallest size you would ever use sitting or standing, leave enough length to just clear the socket internally and cut off the rest of the excess Rod length. The Bass is heavy enough as it is..

Originally Posted by David Powell

I do think KC strings reported some block problems with the Laborie style pin on a TB thread. As far as the separated attachment of the tail gut and pin, the first bass I saw this on was a very innovative bass that I thought was made by a maker named Hamm. But now I can find nothing on the web about that bass. I think I might have some photos on my old PC, but anyway the pin and tail gut were among a few other things done differently. The neck angle was adjustable. Does anyone remember that DB? It was kind of angular at the scroll, had unusual sort of art deco looking f's. I want to say the maker was Charles Hamm, but Google shows nothing. Anyway it is interesting to learn that this is not a new idea, seaparating the endpin hole from the tailgut stay.

The wooden pin idea sounds interesting to me, but when we get to a rubber foot, I kind of wonder if any differences are going to go beyond that piece of rubber. I use soft rubber shock mounts for microphones and these are very effective dampers of sound transmission. Practical experience respected, I don't see how the pin material could do much to increase transmission of the sound to the floor if there is a rubber tip on it.

I saw that about the Laborie endpin on TB as well, but they didn't give any examples of it actually happening, just said that it was possible on cheaply made basses.

That luthier's name is James Hamm - he made the bass that Karr played for several years (although I understand not any more). His basses are very interesting.

As for the rubber on the floor issue, I have no idea why but I can definitely hear the difference between the carbon fiber end pin and the wooden one even though both have rubber balls on the end. I was shocked at the difference when I first heard it.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Brian Roessler

As for the rubber on the floor issue, I have no idea why but I can definitely hear the difference between the carbon fiber end pin and the wooden one even though both have rubber balls on the end. I was shocked at the difference when I first heard it.

Ok, please explain what this shock was all about. Details would be nice..

I guess I was skeptical that there would really be a noticable difference in sound between the two types of endpin. When I first compared them I was really amazed at how much more resonant and full sounding the bass was with the wooden endpin compared to the carbon fiber.

So, I'll sum it up as: The shock was a) at how different the two sound were and b) that I was wrong .

[Charles Federle]

Actually it is Jim (James) Ham. Of his basses that I have played (at least half dozen or so) I don't thin any of them had the tail gut around anything other then the endpin. The picture in his catalogue doesn't. Nevertheless great basses especially for a soloists. The endpin for his basses is a bit unique as well though, they are similar to a keyless chuck for a drill.

[Matthew Tucker]

On a Laborie bass, I have seen an 8mm steel pin driven into the TOP of the block (ie, through the top plate) with indents in the back of the pin. The tailgut hooks directly through that combination of saddle and tailgut-anchor, allowing height adjustment. the tailgut never even saw the endpin!

Regarding rubber tips - as far as i can see there are several things that can happen. Either you couple your bass to the floor with a spike and hope to transmit vibrations to that, and in some cases this will appear to amplify or at least spread your sound around a bit through the larger diaphragm. But the coupling to the floor will also dampen the vibration a bit. I think a light, rigid coupling like a CF endpin would increase the effect. I can see how these effects might be an advantage for arco.

Otherwise, using a soft rubber tip and/or flexible coupling (wooden pin?) would serve to isolate the bass from the floor, theoretically allowing for maximum body vibration and longest sustain, and possibly more focussed effect for the player. I would imagine this would give a greater effect for pizz.

Anyway, this is what I have observed myself, but I'm just one player and one (no, two) basses.

All the above effects are substantially modified depending on floor surface, which also changes the perception of the sound to the player due to different reflection characteristics. Some shops have a carpet floor and others have boards. Which is better? Is this like selling wine with cheese?

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

David, with your 2-height needs for Pizz and Bowing I would pull it out to the tallest size you would ever use sitting or standing, leave enough length to just clear the socket internally and cut off the rest of the excess Rod length. The Bass is heavy enough as it is..

For arco I need it higher and I think that is where it is going to stay. I've been playing more and more arco, even on the jazz standards so I'm getting used to the higher position for pizz also. You are right about the heavy factor of my bass. It weighs 31+ pounds! Fortunately I don't have to strap it over my shoulder and I have some wheels for carting it further than from house to car. I could cut a good bit off it and still have plenty of pin. I might just try one of the wooden ones to see how it works. I'm not a Laborie fan even though I'm using the Rabbath method. I played on a bass with one and it is not for me, and I do think it is not good to have that arrangement in a vertical standing position. It does seem to me that the block is bearing a torque in that case and the blocks generally have trouble holding a normal pin straight. I could see using a Laborie for playing sitting.

Oh, and thanks for the correct "Hamm" It was the bass for Karr that had a different anchor for the tailgut. I remember that pretty specifically unless I am completely hallucinating;- which would be rare.

Brian, I'll take your word for it that it makes a big difference between the wood and CF. There are many things that make a difference that are not intuitive. Is the rubber tip hard rubber or pretty soft? The tip on mine is sort of medium hard. I kind of liked what the KC strings fellows were doing, but it is really a kind of combination wood and CF pin. Probably a bit different from a solid wooden pin.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by David Powell

As far as the separated attachment of the tail gut and pin, the first bass I saw this on was a very innovative bass that I thought was made by a maker named Hamm. But now I can find nothing on the web about that bass. I think I might have some photos on my old PC, but anyway the pin and tail gut were among a few other things done differently.

Back around the 1960s, before they were taken over by a conglomerate, Scherl & Roth made basses with a separate knob that the tail gut attached to in addition to the standard adjustable endpin. I've had others come in my shop over the years, but I don't remember the names of the makers or brand names other than S&R.

Originally Posted by David Powell

Brian, I'll take your word for it that it makes a big difference between the wood and CF. There are many things that make a difference that are not intuitive. Is the rubber tip hard rubber or pretty soft? The tip on mine is sort of medium hard. I kind of liked what the KC strings fellows were doing, but it is really a kind of combination wood and CF pin. Probably a bit different from a solid wooden pin.

The rubber ball is quite soft. Laborie used to use harder rubber but it tended to slip on some smooth surfaces. The soft rubber never slips.

[Ken Smith]

I tested a loose fitted KC endpin on my Hart 2 weeks ago and now I have the real thing. I had it bored for 1/2" CF which I have a cut-off from my CF endpin to glue in myself.

I tested this one (Wood pin with carbon fiber rod) on both my Gilkes and Hart Bass. The CF endpin I use is also cut short to just clear the block inside. This was by the way 1/2 the weight of the KC unit I just got. Sound difference on carpet, slightly deeper only and no noticeable difference in volume.

I bought a second one for my Martini which has a steel rod. I also have the Rod cut short. Comparing the weight between the KC and the shorter Steel rod I have is .8 ounces difference with the Steel slightly heavier.

Sound difference on the Martini? Slightly deeper on the carpet and again not much if any Volume difference.

These are 3 great master grade basses that are tweaked to the hilt already. Not much room for improvement but this new endpin idea still made all of my Basses sound slightly fuller and deeper.

One one Bass we did test 2 weeks ago, a Germanic 100 year old Bass with a long metal steel rod. This Bass had a noticeable improvement with the KC unit on a hard floor.

Conclusion! On master grade old Basses in their best condition, there is still some room for a tweak here and there. On other Basses from good to not so good, more room for improvements are always there. If you have an Endpin sticking past the Block inside your Bass after the height is adjusted, measure the overhang and cut off the excess. This is 'dead' tone sucking weight.

Bravo to KC for a great new product with custom service and fast turn around... I tip my hat!

[Calvin Marks]

http://www.n-pin.com/

These end pins are incredible. They're ridiculously light, and you'll never have to sharpen the tip. My teacher uses one on his Panormo.

[Eric Swanson]

Those look really nice...thanks for sharing that link. Looks like the only thing to avoid would be hitting the endpin tip or standing the bass on something really hard (like a music stand base or concrete, if playing outdoors). Carbide is so brittle. Seems like it would last a long, long time if just used on wood floors...

[Calvin Marks]

Hey guys.

ONYX Musical Products just came out with an all rosewood or ebony end-pin system, meaning the rod and plug are all rosewood or ebony. I saw one of these recently on a bass in a shop in Toronto, they look, sound and work GREAT.

http://shop5.mailordercentral.com/le.../products/318/

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

Hey guys.

ONYX Musical Products just came out with an all rosewood or ebony end-pin system, meaning the rod and plug are all rosewood or ebony. I saw one of these recently on a bass in a shop in Toronto, they look, sound and work GREAT.

http://shop5.mailordercentral.com/le.../products/318/

I had an Ebony Endpin and Socket on my Italian Bass in 1973. I sold it 20 years later with the same unit in it. I don't remember the name of the unit, just the Material. It went into restoration needing both the unit and a Tailpiece. The restorer Peter Eibert put the unit in along with a Hill style (or Hill) Rosewood TP. It too stayed with the bass all 20 years as well. One sound post, one bridge, 19th century tuners, etc. The only thing I changed in 20 years with that bass were the strings a few times.. lol

This brought back some memories. Sorry to slide off topic..

[Pino Cazzaniga]

I saw some Rubner and some Pollmann instruments with two holes in the block, one for the end button and one for the endpin. I don't like it so much, but it make easier to look at the soundpost fit when the basses are strung.
About bent endpins I have no experience, as none of my clients use them.
I made some "all wood" stuff . The button has a conical hole in which a shaft ( also conical at the upper part ) is fit. At the tip of the shaft a screw is sharpened for wooden floors. The hole need to be waxed to take the shaft off. For different heights it need different shafts, plus one, very short, to transport. It seem to work with sound, mostly with readyness, even with rubber, but it may be a little romantic feeling, it's hard to say...