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  #21  
Old 04-13-2009, 05:27 AM
Ken McKay Ken McKay is offline
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Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
30mm overstand? Is that what you have there? Quite low in my book. Most builders today use from 35-40mm. Decreases the angle of the Neck to the player and helps with the Top tension as well. Keeps the hands closer to the body when playing with less angle pitch I would think.

Thanks Ken, I raised it to 40mm. And now this bass has KS stamped on the back in tribute to your many suggestions (kidding).
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  #22  
Old 04-13-2009, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
30mm overstand? Is that what you have there? Quite low in my book. Most builders today use from 35-40mm.
Well, it all depends on the bass, doesn't it? Ken's bass is a cornerless model with sloping shoulders, already easy to reach around into TP, so I don't think he necessarily needs a higher overstand.

My cornerless has 30mm and it's perfectly adequate. any more and it would start to look odd ...

Having said that, its good to start with a deeper overstand. You can always reduce it when fitting the mortise.
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  #23  
Old 04-13-2009, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker View Post
Well, it all depends on the bass, doesn't it? Ken's bass is a cornerless model with sloping shoulders, already easy to reach around into TP, so I don't think he necessarily needs a higher overstand.

My cornerless has 30mm and it's perfectly adequate. any more and it would start to look odd ...

Having said that, its good to start with a deeper overstand. You can always reduce it when fitting the mortise.
It's not just the overstand Matt. In order to achieve the desired Bridge height, you will have to pitch the neck more in angle to the Top with a lower overstand. My Gilkes had about 13mm when I got it and no one complained about that for 50 years. I was on my Toes trying the reach the harmonics at the end of the fingerboard. Also, the tension feels better now with the increased overstand and decreased angle to the Top.

I guess a player can notice this best when he has had a bass for awhile, gotten used to it, had it modified and then compares the difference of before and after. In making the bass new and just picking a singe design of overstand and bridge height, there is no comparison to the playability not having tried it with other measurements.

Therefore, playing basses before and after modification is the best way in my opinion to form judgment on this subject. Not being the Luthier that does the job has no smaller amount of awareness than the the player that lives with the results. Actually, the player might notice the changes even most being more familiar with the bass overall than the Luthier.

As you may know I have a fine old Cornerless bass and regardless of the shoulders, the larger overstand makes it easier to play the upper positions. I played the Pulcinella suite and solo within days of purchasing the attr. Storioni and that is moving from a 41" string length to over 44". If not for the combined ease of playability (and my love for the sound of this bass despite the finger stretch) I would not have been able to use this Bass in concert at 44". Actually, prior to bringing it in for restoration I used it for several concerts. If the Bass had a workable c-extension then I might have used it one all of my concerts but the condition of the bass was not getting any better so I retired the bass to Arnold's shop until it's fully repaired and modified with a shorter string length.
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  #24  
Old 04-13-2009, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Therefore, playing basses before and after modification is the best way in my opinion to form judgment on this subject. Not being the Luthier that does the job has no smaller amount of awareness than the the player that lives with the results. Actually, the player might notice the changes even most being more familiar with the bass overall than the Luthier.
Well, I guess that means you're right then. How silly of me to even think that it might depend on the bass ...
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  #25  
Old 04-13-2009, 07:50 PM
Craig Regan Craig Regan is offline
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With a larger overstand, should there be any added heel reinforcement?

Is this potentially a weak spot for a bass neck?
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  #26  
Old 04-13-2009, 09:49 PM
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A larger overstand does put a greater strain on the neck joint, due to increased leverage. But it's only an increase of around 5%-8%, and unless your mortise is very shallow, I don't think you'll need any extra reinforcement, even at 40mm overstand. You could make your mortise a couple of mm deeper to add glueing surface to compensate.
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  #27  
Old 04-13-2009, 11:00 PM
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Cool good subject..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker View Post
A larger overstand does put a greater strain on the neck joint, due to increased leverage. But it's only an increase of around 5%-8%, and unless your mortise is very shallow, I don't think you'll need any extra reinforcement, even at 40mm overstand. You could make your mortise a couple of mm deeper to add gluing surface to compensate.
Matt, I had a question on this after listening to both your opinions and Arnold's on the strength of the lower Heel. My question is as you just mentioned, does the depth of the Heel into the Block itself make up for the possible strength lost when the Heel is cut Lower 'above' the Block?

I will now post a bunch of pics and solicit your opinion on Neck Heel height above, depth in the Block and Overstand as well. Some of these pics are the Basses as I received and left them, some waiting to be restored and some have been restored with either a new Graft or just the Neck itself moved out.

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  #28  
Old 04-14-2009, 01:36 AM
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Well, from the pictures we can't tell the condition, style or depth of your neck mortises, or what the existing overstand is on each bass.

So what can i postulate?

- the Gilkes has a full length heel with little upper rib taper. Increasing the overstand from 30mm to 40mm would decrease the gluing surface by 5% and increase the leverage on the joint by a similar factor.

- the Hart has a very short heel. Increasing the overstand from 30mm to 40mm would decrease the gluing surface by nearly 8% and increase the leverage on the joint by a similar factor.

- the Storioni has only slightly more heel length than the Hart, but the mortise looks fairly shallow compared to the others, and the button appears just tacked on, so that 7-8% may be more significant.

- the Olde English has what looks like a dovetail mortise. That would change things again, if resetting the overstand was possible using the original dovetail, ie: not converting to an italian heel.

I would hesitate to make any generalisations, however I think a good luthier would naturally compensate for any changes in geometry (overstand or angle), and the reset, if done well, would not compromise the strength of the joint.
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  #29  
Old 04-14-2009, 03:51 AM
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Cool well..

Interesting Math you speak of. For the record, I have had basses with all kinds of necks over time and never has a Neck Heel been broken in my possession in about 45 years.

The Old English bass was most likely a Blockless neck originally but more of a Gamba style construction and not the more common German style. It was later converted to a Dovetail when a Block was added but some of the old Blockless tab was left in. Now it has a deep mortise joint in the modified block.

The Martini, Gilkes and Hart are all out about 35-36mm from the Top. The Old English is out at 46mm. The Loveri came and went as-is, never altered under my watch. The Shoulders helped that despite it being a long bass. The Mougenot needs a Neck Graft as the current neck is thin and bowed forward as well as being an Eb-heel. The overstand is fair at best but with a Graft I can shorten the string length and make it a D-heel. Maybe a few MMs more on the 'Stand or so. The other Bass is an old Neapolitan Bass that is in restoration and will get a graft as well for more reasons than one. That bass and the Mougenot already have added buttons in the heel and need replacing besides. The Storioni Neck is already out of the bass and the Scroll on a shelf at Arnold's. The Block area will be Cut and the new lower Button will be cut and shaped from the existing Back. The Block will probably get beefed up inside as well like was done with both the Old English and hart Basses during their restorations in place of an entirely new Block.

I think the pictures show about how deep or shallow the Necks are set into the Block. Three of the Basses have yet to be restored with new Neck Grafts. Three out of four of the restored basses had Grafts done in the process. The Gilkes Neck and Scroll are still one piece. That had a tiny Button added that moved it from maybe 10-15mm out only but also had a pitched ebony ship under the fingerboard. The Shim Button were removed and a longer button attached put in to help push the Neck out about another inch along with a new FB.. The results were night and day as far as playing over the Shoulders.

My personal test for playability on a bass is the opening of the Dragonetti as well as the harmonic parts in the first movement. That takes you up, down and across quite rapidly as well as playing past the fingerboard on 3 strings hitting the harmonics. This is basic I think for judging the playability of a bass in regards to reach and overstand.
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  #30  
Old 04-14-2009, 04:20 AM
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Matthew Tucker Matthew Tucker is offline
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Interesting. So you are going to cut the back of the Storioni to fix this



so that the new button is made from the intact back wood, and including the centre stripe, then re-purfling??

Are you grafting the scroll, or using the existing heel?

Are you also cutting the front?
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  #31  
Old 04-17-2009, 06:43 PM
Sked James Sked James is offline
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sorry for butting in here , but was watching this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfSONJgwBIM&NR=1

of Ray Brown on u-tube just now , take a look at 3m31 secs , where he gets up off the stool , freeze frame ... you can get a really good look at the overstand , ... THERE ISN'T ONE !
...Ha ! the fingerboard looks to be flat on the bass ribs .

Watch the whole clip to see Ray play , especially the 'A flat ' blues , this 'incorrect' setup doesn't seem to hinder or bother Ray . And he sounds marvelous.
makes me wonder about all the importance you guys are placing on the optimum overstand. i think neck angle to achieve optimum bridge height is more critical , this bass looks like it has a tall bridge .
if the bass plays ok , why 'fix' it .
if this bass in the clip wasn't a good player , you can betcha Ray wouldn't be playing it .
just my 2 cents worth .
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  #32  
Old 04-18-2009, 08:47 AM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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You can drive a car on bald tires, but you can drive a lot better on good ones.
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  #33  
Old 04-18-2009, 12:14 PM
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Cool ok now..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker View Post
Interesting. So you are going to cut the back of the Storioni to fix this



so that the new button is made from the intact back wood, and including the centre stripe, then re-purfling??

Are you grafting the scroll, or using the existing heel?

Are you also cutting the front?
'

First off, sorry for the late reply..

Let me explain the current condition of the Back/Purfling/Button/Neck/Scroll and what ever else is involved in this.

The original Back Button is long gone before our time so something was done in that area and I am not 100% sure what. The Neck/Scroll graft is currently on too shallow of a plane which probably caused the Scroll to be cut for the previous C-Extension. Actually I think Riccardi mentioned that HE himself made the current Neck that is in the Bass and grafted it but the Extension was done some 30 years earlier. Probably to keep the Extension fit he just made a new Neck to his liking (or for whatever reason) and did the graft the same to match the Extension that was there since the Scroll was already cut. The Neck is a tad long and nearly an Eb stop so that in itself is not what we need for this.

This bass will get a clean Block Cut around the Shoulders of the Ribs and will loose the tips of the Top of some inch or two (not sure what we measured) and set the Neck lower into the Block which will probably be lengthened inside as was done with the 'Hart' Neck Block that was shallow inside and the 'Big Ben' Neck Block which was not only cut an inch but also modified from a *******ized Dovetail and mortised quite deep to set the new Neck.

The Back Purfling will be restored to a degree to follow the New Button that will be made from the upper Back just below the replaced button now on the bass. If the purfling cannot be re-used, I imagine that Arnold will make some to match unless we do a Back Button Plate like was done on the Big Ben Gamba.

The String length is now well over 44" and needs to finish up at 42" maximum. Cutting the Block will help bring the Bridge closer to the Octave. Doing all the shortening from the Neck alone will just push the Octave notes further down and away, not closer.

So, the Bass will get a Block Cut, Neck Block modification and re-mortised, new Back Button, new Neck/Scroll graft, Scroll repaired to match up as best as possible to look original.

The Top, Back and Ribs will be also repaired in this restoration. This Bass will also get a new chromatic C-Extension as well which will hide most of the Scroll repairs if anything is visible at all.

In the end, this bass sould play at least as easy as before but without the needed hand/finger stretching from playing it at over 44". Tone-wise I expect it to be slightly more focused as well as maybe some added Volume. Volume is not something this bass ever lacked as far as its reputation goes. Still, I welcome any improvements in tone after the restoration but would be just as happy if it stayed close to the same it was before.

Condition and playability is the main reason for this restoration, not sound improvement.
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