Best mini cardioid condenser for DB

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by David Powell

Here's some photos. In the third photo you can see the compressed foam in the clamp mechanism. In general I like the way the mount works, but it just needs stiffer foam.

Nice looking pickup/mic.. How is the feedback as compared to something like an Underwood or Shadow pickup when played at high volumes or near the amp?

[David Powell]

Ken, the only direct comparison I can make is to my K&K bassmax. Using the Acoustic Image Coda Combo (down-firing 10, forward 5 and tweeter), I can run the K&K at 12:00 o'clock on both the master and the channel gain with no danger of feedback in most situations. I've been able to use the DPA mic alone in a couple of situations where I have previously used the K&K alone, so direct comparison in those rooms is possible. In those rooms I was able to use the DPA with the channel gain at the 9:00 o'clock position with the master at 12:00 o'clock, so the gain is considerably reduced. Of course the "loudness" that is produced is not necessarily the same relation as the channel gain, but it is a pretty good indicator.

To compensate, I used my Ampeg PB 212H cab as an extension on the AI. This increases the efficiency of the head (400W to 500W) and more than doubles the speaker area, so it makes up the difference quite well. I'm not sure why, but adding the extension cab did not decrease the channel gain before feedback. I placed that cab about 90 degrees to my DB off to my right and just slightly forward. The AI was behind me and slightly left. These were pretty close quarters. I did use the notch filter on the AI with the DPA mic. Position of the notch is definitely room dependent. With a concrete floor the notch is at the top of the high frequency range while on a carpeted hollow wooden stage, it was rolled all the way to the bottom end. Also in one room it was better with the bass boosted just slightly on the amp. The other room was OK with flat EQ (the wooden stage).

This approach works really well in a small room and of course sounds much better than the K&K. I was actually very surprised at how good the feedback rejection is on the DPA. It's definitely the best of any cardioid condenser I've tried for anything. It rivals some dynamic CAD vocal mics I have that are as near to feedback proof as any mics I've seen. Unfortunately I haven't tried any of the other miniature condensers.

It seems if it is going to feed back, the position is not too important except if the AI is 45 degrees and in back of the bass. In front, 90 degrees to the side or even directly behind the bass is fine. I was able to move around just as I normally would and didn't feel like a slight side step would set the thing howling, but there is a fine edge to the level, and I have to stay under it. Just a tick beyond that 9:00 o'clock position and all is lost. First it gets that really boomy uncontrollable response and just beyond that, it howls at whatever mid frequency the room supports.

One day we'll have to gather up a bunch of these other mics and test them side by side. I don't know many other players using mics locally. Chris Wood is from here and I see his brother Oliver pretty regularly and we are good friends and I know Chris uses a tiny mic mixed with a Fishman FC. I think it must be the Crown mic that is sometimes supplied with those. He has it mounted in a similar position to what Bob B. describes. On stage he is playing mostly with the Full Circle cranked up. Maybe next time I see those fellows I can egg him into a comparison some way. He's a bit famous you know, but pretty down to earth.

I really do like the fact that the DPA mic as you see it is all there is to it;- no pre-amp or battery box to connect in between. Of course it means you must have a phantom powered system but these days that is almost every house board.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by David Powell

Ken, the only direct comparison I can make is to my K&K bassmax. Using the Acoustic Image Coda Combo (down-firing 10, forward 5 and tweeter), I can run the K&K at 12:00 o'clock on both the master and the channel gain with no danger of feedback in most situations. I've been able to use the DPA mic alone in a couple of situations where I have previously used the K&K alone, so direct comparison in those rooms is possible. In those rooms I was able to use the DPA with the channel gain at the 9:00 o'clock position with the master at 12:00 o'clock, so the gain is considerably reduced. Of course the "loudness" that is produced is not necessarily the same relation as the channel gain, but it is a pretty good indicator.

To compensate, I used my Ampeg PB 212H cab as an extension on the AI. This increases the efficiency of the head (400W to 500W) and more than doubles the speaker area, so it makes up the difference quite well. I'm not sure why, but adding the extension cab did not decrease the channel gain before feedback. I placed that cab about 90 degrees to my DB off to my right and just slightly forward. The AI was behind me and slightly left. These were pretty close quarters. I did use the notch filter on the AI with the DPA mic. Position of the notch is definitely room dependent. With a concrete floor the notch is at the top of the high frequency range while on a carpeted hollow wooden stage, it was rolled all the way to the bottom end. Also in one room it was better with the bass boosted just slightly on the amp. The other room was OK with flat EQ (the wooden stage).

This approach works really well in a small room and of course sounds much better than the K&K. I was actually very surprised at how good the feedback rejection is on the DPA. It's definitely the best of any cardioid condenser I've tried for anything. It rivals some dynamic CAD vocal mics I have that are as near to feedback proof as any mics I've seen. Unfortunately I haven't tried any of the other miniature condensers.

It seems if it is going to feed back, the position is not too important except if the AI is 45 degrees and in back of the bass. In front, 90 degrees to the side or even directly behind the bass is fine. I was able to move around just as I normally would and didn't feel like a slight side step would set the thing howling, but there is a fine edge to the level, and I have to stay under it. Just a tick beyond that 9:00 o'clock position and all is lost. First it gets that really boomy uncontrollable response and just beyond that, it howls at whatever mid frequency the room supports.

One day we'll have to gather up a bunch of these other mics and test them side by side. I don't know many other players using mics locally. Chris Wood is from here and I see his brother Oliver pretty regularly and we are good friends and I know Chris uses a tiny mic mixed with a Fishman FC. I think it must be the Crown mic that is sometimes supplied with those. He has it mounted in a similar position to what Bob B. describes. On stage he is playing mostly with the Full Circle cranked up. Maybe next time I see those fellows I can egg him into a comparison some way. He's a bit famous you know, but pretty down to earth.

I really do like the fact that the DPA mic as you see it is all there is to it;- no pre-amp or battery box to connect in between. Of course it means you must have a phantom powered system but these days that is almost every house board.

Does it feed back at loud volumes? yes or no? I bet you can't post a single word or sentence, can you?

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Does it feed back at loud volumes? yes or no? I bet you can't post a single word or sentence, can you?

YES!!!!!

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Nice looking pickup/mic.. How is the feedback as compared to something like an Underwood or Shadow pickup when played at high volumes or near the amp?

Ken - most of us who are using mics with bass amps (as opposed to using the house PA) use the mic mixed with a pickup. I've used an AMT S25B mic and a Fishman Full Circle for about 2 years now. I've never, ever, had any pickup that I thought truly sounds anything like what the bass sounds like when it is recorded with a mic in the studio. By mixing the mic with the pickup, I am able to get a good "acoustic" sound in most situations Feedback will always be a problem with open mics that are near a speaker. The better mics for bass reject feedback and picking up noise like drums and cymbals, but if the volume is loud enough, they will all feedback. By mixing the mic and pickup, you can vary the relative amounts of mic and pickup according to the job you are on. One relatively quiet trio jobs, I mix in more mic and less or no pickup. When high volume is required the mic gets turned down and the pickup goes up. Even a little mic in the mix adds a great deal to the overall sound at higher volume.

[Mark Mazurek]

The DPA mics are a very nice 'luxurious' mic to use on an instrument.

Known for very accurate and detailed reproduction.

Usually used for recording fine instruments accurately. To use these in a live setting to amplify is a VERY nice luxury.

Looks like a great set-up.

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Mark Mazurek

The DPA mics are a very nice 'luxurious' mic to use on an instrument.

Known for very accurate and detailed reproduction.

Usually used for recording fine instruments accurately. To use these in a live setting to amplify is a VERY nice luxury.

Looks like a great set-up.

Luxury? Luxury in one area is afforded by forgoing luxury in general I suppose. I admit that for the most part I favor premium equipment and have really good bass gear. That said, there is just no end to the list of things that I never have owned or ever want to own that many take for granted as necessities. This is business equipment. It is a long term investment. It is a high ACRS deduction. So I can rationalize it.

I used the DPA again live yesterday evening and it did fine, although that space is very cramped and I did have to reduce the channel gain just a touch. It is such a noticeable difference between a mic and a piezo that I will use it whenever I can get away with it. For the gigs I currently have, it will get a lot of use.

[David Powell]

DPA update: I used the 4021 mic this weekend on a very loud, very live outdoor stage with great success. This is the first time I was able to use it combined with the K&K bassmax piezo through separate channels of the Acoustic Image Coda. The strategy was a little different than I envisioned originally, but I adapted it to the house equipment instead of using my own extension. The problem was impedance matching because there were no 4 ohm speakers available to run as extensions. So instead I ran from the effects send of the DPA channel to the house bass amp, an SWR combo with 15" reflex that was also powering a 4x10 GK cab. The combined output of both channels on the AI went directly to the board post EQ. So the stage sound was mostly mic, the feed to the PA was more piezo. The result was a really clear sound with a lot of punch. I used the notch on both channels to control the most likely feedback frequency. The sound was as loud and feedback free and carried really well considering the audience was spread out over a few acres. With the AI weighing in at 20 lbs., the heaviest thing I had to cart to the stage was my bass.

I did beef up the DPA mount clamp with strips of cork and that worked really well. This whole system has turned out to be extremely versatile and sounds fantastic live either pizzacato or bowed. I got a lot of very positive complements on the sound of the gear from other musicians and even from the sound technicians.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

Ken - most of us who are using mics with bass amps (as opposed to using the house PA) use the mic mixed with a pickup. I've used an AMT S25B mic and a Fishman Full Circle for about 2 years now. I've never, ever, had any pickup that I thought truly sounds anything like what the bass sounds like when it is recorded with a mic in the studio. By mixing the mic with the pickup, I am able to get a good "acoustic" sound in most situations Feedback will always be a problem with open mics that are near a speaker. The better mics for bass reject feedback and picking up noise like drums and cymbals, but if the volume is loud enough, they will all feedback. By mixing the mic and pickup, you can vary the relative amounts of mic and pickup according to the job you are on. One relatively quiet trio jobs, I mix in more mic and less or no pickup. When high volume is required the mic gets turned down and the pickup goes up. Even a little mic in the mix adds a great deal to the overall sound at higher volume.

Bob, let's say I am playing with a Trio in a small restaurant and don't need a lot of volume. Would this Mic pictured above work as well as my old AKG160E wrapped in foam in the Bridge? The AKG plugs right into my Amp and sounds great. Used it with the Gilkes on night with only a tiny bit of volume.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Bob, let's say I am playing with a Trio in a small restaurant and don't need a lot of volume. Would this Mic pictured above work as well as my old AKG160E wrapped in foam in the Bridge? The AKG plugs right into my Amp and sounds great. Used it with the Gilkes on night with only a tiny bit of volume.

That would be a little hard to answer since I have not used that particular microphone. Years ago, I used the AKG's and other mics wrapped in foam stuffed in the bridge. At the time, I thought they sounded good. Howerver, IMO the more modern shock mounted mics have a more natural sound and produce more usable volume.