What makes a Double bass good for Jazz or Classical?

[Sercan Say]

I'm from Turkey, here I'm working with a luthier he built several double bass, but he ordered woods cut in the shape, so he made thickness adjustments and put it all together.Now we will cut , carve woods.

What I want to know is If we want a double bass has good pizz. sound do we have to choose different woods ? Or are there any other major adjustments with wood thickness or something like that?
And same questions for Classical sound.

We recently built-one It has 5/4 body and 3/4 neck with 41,3 scale lenght, It has very full very nice bow sound but pizz. sound not that much better It has good pizz. but bow sound much more full than that.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Sercan Say

I'm from Turkey, here I'm working with a luthier he built several double bass, but he ordered woods cut in the shape, so he made thickness adjustments and put it all together.Now we will cut , carve woods.

What I want to know is If we want a double bass has good pizz. sound do we have to choose different woods ? Or are there any other major adjustments with wood thickness or something like that?
And same questions for Classical sound.

We recently built-one It has 5/4 body and 3/4 neck with 41,3 scale lenght, It has very full very nice bow sound but pizz. sound not that much better It has good pizz. but bow sound much more full than that.

Would you mind telling us ALL the dimensions and not just the 5/4 size so we can see what you are referring to. To this day, I still don't know what people are calling 4/4 or 5/4. Most of the people I talk with call them all 7/8ths as a true 4/4, so they say, would be too big to play for the average person.

On the sound, I don't think woods or design or anything one thing will make a Bass good for Pizz or Bow. Good is Good and many of my Basses are great for either style. Some good commercial jazz type Basses are just bad with the Bow unless set-up for Classical playing and even then, they are student grade at best and do not Pizz well for Jazz unless re-strung with other Strings.

This may be trial and error for a new maker so I suggest you consult Jeff and Arnold who both make some great Basses.

[Sercan Say]

I dont have dimensions but I'll try to get them.

I understand sound issue, I think final setup and strings are effective in this issue.

This bass has one problem too, when we hit F# on the E string with pizz. suddenly volume decrease and then increase.We cant solve this problem.I will put some pictures and maybe some sound sample If I can

Recently we built 2 other bass too they have nice sounds pizz. and bow as you say.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

When you talk about a good jazz sound, what do you mean? Old style thump, whining growl, fat and punchy? Different preferences would dictate the maker's approach. For example, if a client told me he/she wanted a strong upper register and moderate bottom, I would increase the arch height and keep the top a bit thicker. The opposite for a bottomy, thumpy sound...

[Pongsak Sooksawak]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

For example, if a client told me he/she wanted a strong upper register and moderate bottom, I would increase the arch height and keep the top a bit thicker. The opposite for a bottomy, thumpy sound...

That why my bass has a very strong upper and moderate bottom. Also, My baby is so heavy.

PS. I don't know the original of my bass.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Pongsak Sooksawak

That why my bass has a very strong upper and moderate bottom. Also, My baby is so heavy.

PS. I don't know the original of my bass.

Attachment 191

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Attachment 193

I would like to see the rear and sides of the pegbox/scroll and the sides vies/profile of the Ribs as well. It looks like a 1920s - 1930s French Bass to me. This style has seen labels like Bisch, Collin-Mezin, Quenoil and a few others.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

[quote=Pongsak Sooksawak;4073]That why my bass has a very strong upper and moderate bottom. Also, My baby is so heavy.

Plus, the shape of your bass prevents it from being deep-sounding. Generally, basses with small, sloping shoulders (regardless of the lower bout size) have a penetrating sound, but little in the way of bottom.

[Ken Smith]

For some, the modern Jazz sound is one with brightness and sustain on the lower notes but some level of mellowness in the sound so it isn't too harsh. This same set-up for Classical is not so good being that the Bow brings out all the edginess of the treble frequencies and not the Bass spread type sound that is wanted in an Orchestra.

For Orchestra/Bowing/Classical the deeper type/older sounding Basses are preferred especially when they sound darker rather than brighter. Some of the Basses in use that are of French or English origin may seem clear sounding under the ear but usually blend well. Some other Basses are very Organ like in tone on the bottom and sound great for an Orchestra but would be a bit too deep sounding for Jazz. Also, these better Basses are most often out of the reach financially of the average Jazz player so it is something they would seldom encounter.

There are a few jazz players that do prefer the darker orchestral tone for Jazz and do have a Bass that would work in either venue. Size wise, smaller 3/4 Basses with sloped shoulders is the average Bass in Jazz and 7/8ths or larger 3/4 Basses with broader shoulder/upper bouts is more commonly seen in the Orchestra.

Go to about 20 jazz gigs and note the 20 Basses in use. Then go to a few Orchestral concerts and note the Basses in use with the Symphonic player. Maybe try and play some of these Basses so you can experience the difference first hand. As always, experience is still the best teacher.

[Pongsak Sooksawak]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I would like to see the rear and sides of the pegbox/scroll and the sides vies/profile of the Ribs as well. It looks like a 1920s - 1930s French Bass to me. This style has seen labels like Bisch, Collin-Mezin, Quenoil and a few others.

Here, I took those pics since I got this baby.
And, my bass has some kind of nail made from ebony wood in the corners (near f hole), like all basses imported to this regian (south east asia). For example, my friend's Hawks has the same thing.

Ps. It located in Bangkok, Thailand.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Pongsak Sooksawak

Here, I took those pics since I got this baby.
And, my bass has some kind of nail made from ebony wood in the corners (near f hole), like all basses imported to this regian (south east asia). For example, my friend's Hawks has the same thing.

Ps. It located in Bangkok, Thailand.

Ebony nail near the F holes? Can you show me a picture of that? This sounds confusing!

[Pongsak Sooksawak]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Ebony nail near the F holes? Can you show me a picture of that? This sounds confusing!

Ken
That is very difficult to capture the pic. But, that's not the nail. The position is not near the F holes.

Here, that's the same thing happened with the Hawkes and Son Concert Double Bass labelled and dated 1910 - #2644 from the contrabass shoppe, UK.

"The instrument has what we call “pins” - in the corners and at both top and bottom blocks. These were fitted to instruments - that were destined for use in tropical countries. In glue-softening high humidity's - the pins would help maintain the position of the table and back onto the blocks."

Sorry for my english to make you confuse.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Pongsak Sooksawak

Ken
That is very difficult to capture the pic. But, that's not the nail. The position is not near the F holes.

Here, that's the same thing happened with the Hawkes and Son Concert Double Bass labelled and dated 1910 - #2644 from the contrabass shoppe, UK.

"The instrument has what we call “pins” - in the corners and at both top and bottom blocks. These were fitted to instruments - that were destined for use in tropical countries. In glue-softening high humidity's - the pins would help maintain the position of the table and back onto the blocks."

Sorry for my english to make you confuse.

Pins are usually drilled for BEFORE the Top comes off for Repair so it can be fitted later in the proper place in case the Ribs twist out or shape. I don't know of any maker/company that would make a Bass with the pins to start with. With the Hawkes Basses being made mainly in Germany with some in France or England or finished in England, I don't' know how they could predict the buyer location that far in advance of them receiving the Basses from the Shop making them to plan the 'Pins' as you seem to believe were pre-meditated.

My Loveri has Pins in all the Corners and Neck area as well as the Scroll which I believe are decorations to make the needed ones in the Corners look matching.

[Pongsak Sooksawak]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Pins are usually drilled for BEFORE the Top comes off for Repair so it can be fitted later in the proper place in case the Ribs twist out or shape. I don't know of any maker/company that would make a Bass with the pins to start with. With the Hawkes Basses being made mainly in Germany with some in France or England or finished in England, I don't' know how they could predict the buyer location that far in advance of them receiving the Basses from the Shop making them to plan the 'Pins' as you seem to believe were pre-meditated.

My Loveri has Pins in all the Corners and Neck area as well as the Scroll which I believe are decorations to make the needed ones in the Corners look matching.

Yes, exactly like mine.

Thank you for your information.

[davidseidel]

Ken, I think in the days of those hawkes basses they could have predicted the destinations to humis countries as they were I believe often destined for military use in British colonies eg India. Hawkes basses have often been found in India and they originated from British military from that period. Seems feasible to me anyway!

[Sercan Say]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Would you mind telling us ALL the dimensions and not just the 5/4 size so we can see what you are referring to. To this day, I still don't know what people are calling 4/4 or 5/4. Most of the people I talk with call them all 7/8ths as a true 4/4, so they say, would be too big to play for the average person.

I have all the dimensions now

Body height : 120 cm
Upper bout width: 53 cm
Middle bout width: 42 cm
Lower bout width: 76,6 cm
Neck length : 45 cm

Playing string length: 103 cm

I forgot the measur Rib depth but I'll do it today.


We have this problem with F#, when hit F# volume changes, and note is out off tune.We don't know what the problem is we changed sound post, strings, fingerboard , scale length.Maybe problem is about body dimensions?
I took a video when I hit F# you can hear our problem other note seems okay.
http://www.4shared.com/file/16463200.../SANY0314.html

[Ken McKay]

You have a resonance that is close to F# on your bass body that is very "easily" excited. You may be able to locate it and damp or change the frequency so it doesn't boom. I would start by having someone else help you find the resonating part by pressing in different places while you play the F#. If you find it by pressing on the top, then you can add some mass to that area in the form of sticky tac, plasticine or some other heavy clay type stuff. Once you get the right weight in the right place you can take the top off and glue in some wood inside and that damp it or shift the resonanct frequency of that mode of vibration. There is also a relationship between adding mass and removing stiffness. So that would be another possible approach. If you can't find the resonance by pressing on the bass body, then it is an air resonance and you can test that by taping over one, some or both ff holes.

[Sercan Say]

Originally Posted by Ken McKay

then it is an air resonance and you can test that by taping over one, some or both ff holes.

We'll look about the body, but yesterday we closed one F hole with hand and for a second we lost that sound, we'll check the body for resonance but if it is air resonance what can we do about that?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Sercan Say

I have all the dimensions now

Body height : 120 cm
Upper bout width: 53 cm
Middle bout width: 42 cm
Lower bout width: 76,6 cm
Neck length : 45 cm

Playing string length: 103 cm

I forgot the measur Rib depth but I'll do it today.


We have this problem with F#, when hit F# volume changes, and note is out off tune.We don't know what the problem is we changed sound post, strings, fingerboard , scale length.Maybe problem is about body dimensions?
I took a video when I hit F# you can hear our problem other note seems okay.
http://www.4shared.com/file/16463200.../SANY0314.html

Body height : 47 1/4" (120 cm)...Comments: 4/4 size
Upper bout width: 20 7/8" (53 cm)...Comments: 7/8 size
Middle bout width: 16 1/2" (42 cm)...Comments: 7/8 - 4/4 size
Lower bout width: 30 3/16" (76,6 cm)...Comments: 4/4 size
Neck length : 17 3/4" (45 cm)...Comments: "not a necessary measurement"

Playing string length: 40 1/5" (103 cm)...Comments: 5/8 - 3/4 size

This is a very unusual Bass measurement wise if the numbers are correct!

A long body with a wide lower bout and a short string length. I would assume this bass to have a potentially deep sound as the lower bout seems so big in length and width but the shorter upper bout may be fighting the tone making it sound thinner. The center bout also seems to be on the wide side as well.

I would like to hear Arnold's opinions on this but before that happens I would ask that you measure once more to confirm the numbers as well as my inch conversions.

[Sercan Say]

Inch conversions and measurements are correct, my luthier said he ordered the body woods pre-shaped from Romania (If I remember correct).

The bass has really huge sound with bow but we cant say that for pizz. sound.And we still have this F# problem it is between F and G notes maybe this problem is about fingerboard dressing?

[Ken McKay]

Now that I hear that again I think you need to dress your fingerboard first before you do any thing with the bass body.

You have a buzz on the E and A string, at least that is what I think I am hearing. Try finding where the string is buzzing. Jeff Bollbach's trick is to put some chalk on the bottom of the string and then retune to pitch and play. The chalk will rub off on the fingerboard and show the spot to scrape.

It sounds like the buzzing is in the area of the first position. My approach would be to remove the E by loosening it and moving it off to the side. Scrape the fingerboard under the E from where the nut butts against the fingerboard up to about F or maybe F#. Put back on the string and listen for improvement. Repeat as necessary. Once good, do this with the A string.

If this doesn't help, you will need to pop off the nut and plane the fingerboard down with a handplane. Start from about A on E string and plane towards the nut end.