Where are they??

[Ken Smith]

The BIG old German Basses from Mittenwald made 150 years ago and before, where are they? Other than a few for sale in London or Germany on occasion you hardly ever hear about them?

These would be those of the Kloz/Klotz family and the later Seitz/Seiz, Neuner and/or Hornsteiner family of makers. Throw in Baader/Bader while you're at it!

These are the real big 4/4 or 5/4 (as some call them) full sized Basses.

Is it possible that the Central European players love them so much that they just don't give them up? ..or?.. Has it just been more profitable for dealers scouring Europe over the years to bring back only Italian, English and French Basses?

Lets talk some German here.. Basses I mean.

[Sked James]

well, here is an Austrian bass for sale,
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=558909

..looks like a nice bass , and at the right price. I have played quite a few good sounding German basses , but can't say i find the look of many of them attractive . They can look a bit ugly.
This one looks nice . . Those hat peg tuners just don't do it for me though.

[Sked James]

here is a couple of Neuner & Hornsteiner , at the bottom of the page here , very nice looking basses ,
http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/bass/room.html
i played one once , had a huge sound , but it was such a large bass ,it was almost impossible to play , ... i'm 5'10 '' so no shorty , but i couldn't get around on that thing . If i remember, the stop was 44 inches .

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Sked James

here is a couple of Neuner & Hornsteiner , at the bottom of the page here , very nice looking basses ,
http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/bass/room.html
i played one once , had a huge sound , but it was such a large bass ,it was almost impossible to play , ... i'm 5'10 '' so no shorty , but i couldn't get around on that thing . If i remember, the stop was 44 inches .

This one here is closer to what I am looking for but 1869 is more like the factory era of the firm N&H. They actually had that company for about 250 years so I guess the factory thing is cool. I am looking for original old Basses by Neuner, Seitz, Klotz, Stainer (if any real ones exist), Hornsteiner (if there are non-firm made basses), Baader, and any from other individual makers that made those big 4/4 full sized Basses. Some may have even been made (from what I have read) as 3-String Basses (yes, in Germany) but strung with only the Lower strings, the treble string removed so it supports the bottom of the Orchestra. Unlike the 3-string model from Italy, France, England and Spain where they removed the lower string. Making the bass 'full sized' would have been more practical for producing the lower fundamental bass notes desired.

So, keep 'em coming. May I suggest looking at Orchestras actually IN central Europe where the might be hiding there in the Bass section. From what I have read, several makers made 4/4 sized basses in Germany from the period I mentioned and mostly in Mittenwald. I just wanna see as many of them as I can find.

[Anselm Hauke]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

...Is it possible that the Central European players love them so much that they just don't give them up? ...

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

...Orchestras actually IN central Europe where the might be hiding there in the Bass section. ...

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Anselm Hauke

Ok, you silence Sir Anselm is loudly heard!

Maybe being from this region, you could tell us things one would only learn from being a German native experiencing these 'hidden treasured basses' first hand.. Can you?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Sked James

well, here is an Austrian bass for sale,
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=558909

..looks like a nice bass , and at the right price. I have played quite a few good sounding German basses , but can't say i find the look of many of them attractive . They can look a bit ugly.
This one looks nice . . Those hat peg tuners just don't do it for me though.

Nice bass but it looks more German than Viennese to me. The label doesn't seem to match the bass either. If it were an 1809 dated bass German or Viennese then all you would need now to answer my call "where are they?" would be to have it in a 4/4 full sized. I am looking for the really BIG ones. Basses that measure somewhere like my Big Gamba which most believe is English but not everyone.

String length alone does not determine size in my book. It is the body length mainly. So 47-48" long or so is the targeted size for the 4/4. Bridge placement with or without centering on the F-hole nicks determine the string length. Depending on where the FFs were cut into the Top would determine the intended string length along with the length of the neck itself.

Nice Bass you links us to there but please, keep looking..

[Joel Larsson]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

The BIG old German Basses from Mittenwald made 150 years ago and before, where are they?

Here's one just barely being old enough: http://www.kontrabass.ch/c_cms/baess...iner-1859.html

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Joel Larsson

Here's one just barely being old enough: http://www.kontrabass.ch/c_cms/baess...iner-1859.html

Yes, but that's the tail end of the era I was looking for. I think I have seen a few of those basses and that would be a good period because of the growth of the modern orchestras in which they needed them. The Basses I was looking for were the BIG ones that were even used as only 3-stringers just for the lower notes and were later converted to 4 and even cut down in size possibly.

There are MANY makers within each of these families of Neuner and Hornsteiner but there seems to have been a factory of sorts with that name way back into the 18th century from what I have read. Only a few of them were ever involved with basses as Violins was and always is the main focus of these shops.

Still, thanks for posting.

[Anselm Hauke]

so, what do you think about this one:
http://www.geba-online.de/marktplatz...e_id=0&id=4616

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Anselm Hauke

so, what do you think about this one:
http://www.geba-online.de/marktplatz...e_id=0&id=4616

Mittenwald or maybe even Bozen-Bolzano/Alban-Albani school. Looks a bit Italian to me as well. This is the ad. What does it say, Fussen school bass?

Der fünf-saitige Kontrabaß,
Anfang des neunzehnten Jahrhunderts von einem unbekannten Meister, vermutlich im Füssener Raum gebaut, zeichnet sich durch seinen vollen, tragfähigen Klang und seine leichte Ansprache aus.
Seine ästhetische Form macht es zu einem Schmuckstück.
Das Instrument wurde 1994 von Bernhard Kort(Berlin)komplett restauriert und befindet sich in einem excelenten Zustand.
Es wurde seit 1993 durchgehend im Orchester der Deutschen Oper Berlin gespielt.
Auch im Bayreuther Festspielorchester, im Berliner Philharmonischen Orchester und in der Staatskapelle Dresden kam es zum Einsatz.
D-Mensur 106 cm, gesamte Höhe 187 cm
Preis: 38.500€

[Anselm Hauke]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Mittenwald or maybe even Bozen-Bolzano/Alban-Albani school. Looks a bit Italian to me as well. This is the ad. What does it say, Fussen school bass?

i says:
early 19th century
unknown maker, probably füssen school,
1994 complete restaurated at bernhard kort, berlin http://www.kort-basses.com/?set_language=de excellent condition
was played in berlin philharmonic, german opera berlin, bayreuth, stattskapelle dresden
scale length 106cm, 187 cm tall, 38.500€

i like it, but: what else could you get for 38.500?

[nick weldon]

Here's my large old German - the stop is 43.75", the body length is 46.5", the width across the top bout is 21.625" and across the bottom bout 28.5". Bottom rib 8.75" deep.
The papers I received with the bass described it as Mittenwald, around 1820, but another luthier has recently disagreed, ( I think because of the scroll) and dates it later and not from Mittenwald.
Anyway, it's a fine old bass, which I love playing!
Any opinions gratefully received…
Nick

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by nick weldon

Here's my large old German - the stop is 43.75", the body length is 46.5", the width across the top bout is 21.625" and across the bottom bout 28.5". Bottom rib 8.75" deep.
The papers I received with the bass described it as Mittenwald, around 1820, but another luthier has recently disagreed, ( I think because of the scroll) and dates it later and not from Mittenwald.
Anyway, it's a fine old bass, which I love playing!
Any opinions gratefully received…
Nick

First off Nick, it is hard to evaluate anything from just pictures on the Internet and these pics are not that good either. From what I have seen of Mittenwald basses, this one looks different. There are some that have that typical smaller upper bout with slightly sloped shoulders and a bigger wider bottom. Then, there are commercial basses made that look like all the rest of the Germans. Some Czech basses made near the German border look like this as well.

As far as the age goes, from the pics I will agree 19th century but 1820 would be hard to agree on from just these images. Looks like a nice bass but, that dark varnish was put over lighter brown varnish at some point from what I can see. That in itself makes it seem older than it might be.

If Mittenwald, it looks more like a commercially made Baader then anything from the Klotz-Hornsteiner-Neuner-Seitz-Reiger school. The Scroll may or may not be original to the body. Lots of bad things have happened to old basses and original heads do not always survive.

By the way, where are the Papers from, by whom?

[nick weldon]

Hi Ken, thanks for taking the time to look - the evaluation was from Thwaites, I think, a very well respected luthier here in the UK

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by nick weldon

Hi Ken, thanks for taking the time to look - the evaluation was from Thwaites, I think, a very well respected luthier here in the UK

Thwaites is a shop that deals in all strings instruments and they have handled many great basses over the years. Like I said, from the pictures, it can go either way but I have seen at least one Mittenwald bass that looks similar to yours. Not all Mittenwald basses have a specific look. After all, they are German as well and most of all, German makers usually follow the Italian and/or the Tirol school in one way or another.

I have done a bit of business with Thwaites as well over the lase few years but thru personal meets here in my shop with Bill P.. Next time you are in there, give Bill my personal regards.

[Ken Smith]

I have seen this huge bass (116cm s.l., 45.66") on-line many times and it's listed as an old English bass played in the Finnish Radio Symphony. A few weeks ago I noticed the small ebony arrows inlaid in the upper gamba bout corners of the Top. The only maker I know of that does that is Josef Rieger of Mittenwald (19c.). Rufus Reid has a bass by him as well. This one has a lion head as well.