"Name That Size" aka "Size Matters"

[Ken Smith]

The topic of Bass size has been discussed over and over but with one consistent result. 'Confusion'!

This thread is intended for the topic and sharing of what 'might' make a Bass a particular size. My alternate title 'Size Matters' for those of you not sure implies 'matters concerning the size of various Basses' in case you were confused..lol

The biggest issue to date has been 'what is a 4/4 size Bass'? Another issue to consider which has been discussed much less is what is a 3/4, 5/8 or 1/2 sized Bass.

The sizes I want to cover here are the ones most commonly called 1/2, 5/8, 3/4, 7/8, 4/4 and 5/4. There are some smaller ones out there with most of the modern ones being children's sizes and also a few Giants as well that have only the descriptive title of HUGE etc.

I don't' want to copy the text discussed in the past over at TB but I will re-post a few thought I have stated being that they are my own words. Others are welcomed to re-post here anything of merit within the discussion that they may have posted over there.

Here are two quotes from posts I made in the past concerning size. I have edited them a bit to take out replies I made within.

While newer Basses may have some level of standard measurements, older Basses were made before the rule books were written and do not necessarily fall into any one size category.

On the term 'Full Size' have any of you guys rented a Car lately? I think 'Full Size' today can refer more to the average Orchestral Bass used today which is not considered to be a smaller sized Bass. These are usually large 3/4s and 7/8ths size Basses. My previously owned Prescott and Morelli Basses were huge and were probably in their day considered to be a Full Sized Bass in that period. I have a huge Bass (Mystery Bass of early English or French origin) in restoration now that is the biggest I have ever owned and still it is considered to be a large 7/8ths. Many many older larger Basses have been cut down to be made usable. My Bass will have some surgery in that department as well. It will loose about 1" at the Neck/Top shoulder area and the neck will be set lower and with a slightly smaller neck heel to get the Bass down to 42" string length or slightly less from it's original 44" size.

There is really no standard that I know of. If the Bass seems to be a regular size, we call it a 3/4. If it seems bigger, we call it a 7/8ths. To this day, the Basses I own can be 3/4 or 7/8 on some, and 7/8 or 4/4 on others depending on who is measuring them.

I refer to the bigger 3/4 sizes as 'full' 3/4 or small 7/8ths sometimes. In Europe they jump right to 4/4 or even 5/4 when it’s bigger then the average 3/4 size.

This thread will also serve as a question and answer section for those needing information on what size a particular Bass might be.

See my next Post.....

[Ken Smith]

"Name That Size" the on-line Game! (fits the topic..lol)

1) Body length..42 3/8"
String length.39 1/2"
Upper Bout...18 3/4"
Middle Bout.13 1/2"
Lower Bout..24 3/4"
Rib Depth....7 3/4"

2) Body length..43"
String length.41"
Upper Bout...20"
Middle Bout.14 5/8"
Lower Bout..25 5/8"
Rib Depth....8" (6 1/2" at Neck)

3) Body length..43 3/4"
String length.40 3/4"
Upper Bout...19 3/4"
Middle Bout.15 1/4"
Lower Bout..26"
Rib Depth....8" (7 1/2" at Neck)

4) Body length..41"
String length.41 1/4"
Upper Bout...21"
Middle Bout.14 1/2"
Lower Bout..25 1/4"
Rib Depth....7 1/4" (6" at Neck)

5) Body length..43"
String length.*42 5/8"
Upper Bout...19 1/4"
Middle Bout.13 3/4"
Lower Bout..27"
Rib Depth....7 3/4"-7 1/2" (6" at Neck)

6) Body length..44 3/8"
String length.41 3/4"
Upper Bout...20 3/4"
Middle Bout.14 1/2"
Lower Bout..26 1/8"
Rib Depth....7 7/8" (5 1/4" at Neck)

7) Body length..44 5/8"
String length.*44 1/4"
Upper Bout...19 7/8"
Middle Bout.16 3/8"
Lower Bout..27"
Rib Depth....7 3/4" (5 3/4" at Neck)

8) Body length..47"
String length.*44"
Upper Bout...22"
Middle Bout.15 3/8"
Lower Bout..28 1/2"
Rib Depth....8 1/2" (5 3/4" at Neck)

Note: *Marked before 'String length' means it was/is the natural String length before altered for set-up or modification as seen on each Webpage link.

Please tell us what size you would call each Bass listed. Look at the Hyper links to each Webpage before posting your answers.

Using the same measurement template above, please feel free to post your own Basses or any others of interest for discussion. Pictures will also help measuring up your Bass.

**I had left out the Rib depths on purpose so as not to confuse ones mind but by request, I just added them in. I don't think the Ribs are a factor in the actual size of the Bass but does contribute to the feel of the Bass as well as air volume.

[Matthew Tucker]

Go on, post the rib depths too. I don't think that will confuse anyone any more than they will be already. For me the "size" of a bass is also how big it feels, and rib depth does contribute to that.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Go on, post the rib depths too. I don't think that will confuse anyone any more than they will be already. For me the "size" of a bass is also how big it feels, and rib depth does contribute to that.

Ok, I agree on the feel factor but the Rib depths are listed also in the links. I will go back and add them in, just for you..

[Arnold Schnitzer]

1) 3/4
2) 11/16
3) 23/32
4) 3/4 petite
5) 21/32
6) 49/64
7) 15/16
8) 4/4 underarm

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

1) 3/4
2) 11/16
3) 23/32
4) 3/4 petite
5) 21/32
6) 49/64
7) 15/16
8) 4/4 underarm

It's always nice to get a professional opinion.

By the way, what formula did you use with the calculator for this?

Please re-calculate #5. It's much bigger than #1, 2 & 4 think. Also, re-think #3 again.

[Matthew Tucker]

As an aside ... back in 2005 you said on Talkbass

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

Like a guy who plays Double Bass in a Symphony and fixes Basses is going to know what you are talking about.. funny.....

For most things, mm is used instead of ". 32nds and 64ths are carpenters #s. 1000s like .020, .825, 1.250, etc is better.

Try talking in OUR language and you will get some answers.. What was the question?

But I notice you're nearly always talking in fractions now. Why the language change?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

As an aside ... back in 2005 you said on Talkbass

But I notice you're nearly always talking in fractions now. Why the language change?

Well Matt, first off without seeing the rest of the Thread it would be hard for most to understand the topic and my meaning. I almost am sure it wasn't just about string lengths.

In this country, the common person uses inches and fractions of inches as I have listed above.

Now, answer the 'size question' already and make your contribution. Do you know the inch/mm conversion method?

In case you weren't sure, Arnold was partially or rather mostly joking on his sizes listed.

[Matthew Tucker]

The thread was here http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=198139

Yep I will play, I have a few theories and I want to test them with your measurements. But that'll have to be after work today.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

The thread was here http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=198139

Yep I will play, I have a few theories and I want to test them with your measurements. But that'll have to be after work today.

Matt, thanks for the link. What you see there and it's used often are different types of measurements for different things. Millimeters are often used here in USA for string heights and widths both at the bridge and at the Nut while many use inches and fractions for the rest of the Bass.

It 'would' be easier if it were all metric but it's tough enough talking string spacing with a small mm ruler here. Measuring the rest of the Bass in mm and cm would make most pull out the calculator and divide by 2.54 or 25.4 depending on what's needed.

Like people who speak Spanish and then hit a few words in English because they can't describe it in Spanish. That's called Spanglish. I did a B'way show back in '73 (SeeSaw) and one of the tunes was named Spanglish for that reason.

We can call this mix of inches and mm, Millainches or Inchometers..

[Matthew Tucker]

Well just going on the numbers, I reckon the basses will feel larger in this order

Candi 3/4
Batchelder 3/4
Bohemian 3/4
Gilkes 3/4 - 7/8
Loveri 7/8
Hart 7/8
Storioni 7/8
Mystery 4/4

But actually I don't really give a fig about what the size is called in fractional terms. Its a pretty meaningless number I reckon, I put them there just for the sake of playing the game, but I'd be interested if my grading of the "feel" of the bass from smaller to larger is anywhere near correct.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Well just going on the numbers, I reckon the basses will feel larger in this order

Candi 3/4
Batchelder 3/4
Bohemian 3/4
Gilkes 3/4 - 7/8
Loveri 7/8
Hart 7/8
Storioni 7/8
Mystery 4/4

But actually I don't really give a fig about what the size is called in fractional terms. Its a pretty meaningless number I reckon, I put them there just for the sake of playing the game, but I'd be interested if my grading of the "feel" of the bass from smaller to larger is anywhere near correct.

I agree with your sizes but with this addition. The Gilkes is a short string length but doesn't feel small when you play it. The Shoulders get you up on your toes to play the harmonics past the fingerboard.

I would call all of the Basses listed from the Gilkes on down the list 'Full sized Orchestral Basses' as in 'full sized cars'. Not a stretch limo or a bus. Like a Caddy, Chevy Caprice, Ford LTD etc.. A 4-passenger car where adults can sit comfortably in the back seat as well as the front. The last Bass, the 'Mystery Bass' is larger all around and may by European standards classify as a 5/4 Bass being larger than the average Bass played in an Orchestra. The first three are about what they are in comparison, smaller than a regular sized Orchestra Basses and therefor can be classed as a 3/4 Bass and the others a 4/4 by modern standards. Again, The Gilkes is on the fence being a Cello shaped Bass but not as long. The Loveri is a long Bass. I have a picture here of me playing it from a local newspaper article on my shop. With the normal endpin height, The Scroll towers over my head and I am 6ft tall. The cut shoulders of the Loveri make it look smaller but with a normal set-up, the string length is close to 43" with the Bridge centered and tilted slightly towards the Tailpiece. I worked hard to make that Bass play as a D-neck and under 42". The 7/8 Basses are as big as todays 4/4 factory Bass but with playable string lengths. Put all the measurements in a blender and see what you get size-wise!

My definition is a regular sized professional Orchestra Bass that is usually called a large 3/4 or 7/8 is a 'full sized Bass'. A full sized 4/4 violin is 14" long at the back. If we play these bigger 3/4-7/8ths Bass as the regular adult sized Bass, then it should be classed as a 'full sized' as it is not fractioned down for a smaller person as would be a Violin for children. In the history of the Bass, there have been Giant Basses to play the sub lows that were never made for normal use. Those are not full sized 4/4 Basses. They are giants like 6/4 or 8/4 sized. I am going with the masses here on this. If it's the normal large Orchestral Bass, then it's 'full sized'. If it's slightly smaller like a regular Juzek/Wilfer then it's a 3/4. The older German Shop Basses made in the larger sizes had string lengths of over 43". To those makers, that was a modern 4/4 Bass of its time. With the Shoulders, bouts, string lengths, body lengths, rib depths and FF-hole placements being different on ever Bass, then we can only generalize its size. The making of the Basses are general as well so why are we beating ourselves over the head about this?

Last night I played my Candi Bass. It felt small. It was a small 3/4 Bass. Last week I played the Storioni with a 44" string length. That was a full sized Bass but with a manageable body. Just ask my fingers as they are still stretched out! This Sunday I will use my Bohemian Bass which is a 3/4. Next week I will use the Hart for a concert. That is a full sized Bass. Nothing cut-down or small about that baby, nothing!

It is difficult naming sizes when you mix old with old/altered and with new modern 'sized' Basses. The last time I rented a full sized Car, My seat was so far back that only a child or legless person could sit behind me in the Back. I had to rent the Luxury size to get what used to measure out as a full sized car. Isn't a foot still 12inches and a pound 16 ounces? 1+1=2? 100~4=25? Why do Basses have to get smaller along with the cars?

[Ken Smith]

With this side by side link, you can see how close and how different the Hart and Gilkes are to each other.

[Scott Pope]

I have really enjoyed reading this thread and perusing the wide variety of basses. I especially liked the automobile ****ogy. When the federal government started classifying cars for fuel economy purposes, they went with one spec: passenger compartment volume. So, of course, a 60's - 70's Chrysler Imperial was a full-sized car. But...today, I don't think that anyone would dispute that a Jaguar XJ6 is a full-sized, luxury vehicle, not only for its appointments, but its actual size as well. But under the original federal classification, because it did have a smaller passenger compartment, it was actually classified as a "compact car" for awhile for fuel economy ratings purposes, even weighing in the neighborhood of 3700 lbs!!