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  #1  
Old 05-29-2012, 11:40 PM
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Cool Spirocore Red's, Orchestral ??

If anyone has protested Spiro Reds for Orchestral Bowing on line, I was one of them and made no secret of it. So, let me voice my new interest about this.

Years ago when I played in NY using my Old Italian Bass, I used a few kinds of strings from time to time but most often, I used Spiro Reds. I bowed on them just fine and usually used that string on all my other basses as well. I don't think there were Starks on the market yet. I think I heard of Solo/Yellow tips and later on Weich/purple tips but had never used or even seen them that I can recall.

Now, with that said, I have seen a few classical soloists using Spiro Solos and in Europe, I have seen a bass or two with Reds on them, Orchestral players. Now, Belcantos came out only a few years ago so if Reds weren't being used by many in the Orchestras then that would mean Thomastic was selling Spiros to mostly Jazz players. Sounds right? Well, I could easily be totally wrong here on that.

I think here in USA we like that smooth sound under the Bow but many of the European players play with a bit more edge in Orchestras from what I have seen in Youtube videos. Maybe it has something to do with playing their own domestic-like music, maybe not.

A few weeks ago I had some basses come in from Europe to set-up and sell here. One had super high action mainly due to a low overstand on the neck but, it had Spiro Reds on it. The G about 11-12mm and the E about 13-14mm off the end of the fingerboard. By the way, that set-up is about what Virtuoso Bassist Leon Bosch uses. He told me this but when I played his Bass, I saw how that felt. I could barely press the strings down!

So, Mr. Bosch and his action preference aside, this modern English copy with super high actioned Spiros, bowed as smooth as anything. When I sent the Bass with a few others out for set-up with one of the Luthiers I gave him some new sets of strings for the other Basses but said "put the Spiros back on that Bass after you move the Neck out".

Now, on my main personal Bass I have used various sets over the last few years including Flex 92s, Belcantos, Jargar med., Passione Starks and now the new Kaplans, in that order. I have tried at least as many strings that I didn't like for that Bass but those 4 sets mentioned are welcomed any time. Of the others I have tried, they found homes on other basses of mine so nothing went to waste. Also, of the ones I used for just a few months, they went on to other basses.

So now, when these Kaplans wear out of I get tired of them, I think I owe it to my own curiosity to try some Spiro Reds.

I will point out that in the past few years, I have had a few basses come in with Spiro Solos and Weichs as well. They Bowed ok for Spiros on those basses that were however set-up for Jazz but, the tone was too thin for my ears.

So please share your thoughts, opinions, observations or experiences with Spiro reds for Orchestral Bowing.
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Old 05-30-2012, 02:09 AM
Eduardo Barbosa Eduardo Barbosa is offline
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Hi Ken,
I play a Romanian 7/8's similar to the one you were selling a while back.
I have used EP's regular and weich, Obligatos, belcantos, Zyex, I stll have on hold a set of Helicore Orchestral, and helicore Hybrid to try out. But for some reason Spiros are the ones that truly wake up that particular bass.
I have that bass mainly for Orchestra, but I like the idea of being able to play the same bass for both orchestra and jazz, just so i can become very intimate with one instrument.
The Spiros a little scratchy at times if I am not real careful. But overall I think they sound great and I was told that out front they sound great, and instead of sounding scratchy out front they just make the bass sound very present.
In general I wasn't satisfied with the other strings because after a while they kind of tended to sound just dark and kind of dull. I still love the EP's and have them on my other bass which is a little smaller and brighter.
I will keep practicing all summer with the spiros, and I'll make the commitment of playing the whole next season on them so i can have a real good idea on how they settle in and perform.
BTW, it's also important to mention that I have two new sets of spiros that I am not currently using. I got the set that I am using on ebay for $23 and apparently it had been used for about 5 or 6 years. It really sounds nice. In fact I had a couple of guys from the Colorado Symphony contact me to see if I had a well used set of spiros that they could get from me. That gave me a clue...
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Old 05-30-2012, 09:47 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Ken, is it true that the Kaplans have a fast response under the bow? I'm wondering if Spiro Reds would have a fast response too. The EP weichs are a bit slow. I've been thinking about Spiro reds too as a good classical/jazz string.
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  #4  
Old 05-30-2012, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Prowse View Post
Ken, is it true that the Kaplans have a fast response under the bow? I'm wondering if Spiro Reds would have a fast response too. The EP weichs are a bit slow. I've been thinking about Spiro reds too as a good classical/jazz string.
Fast response? I am not sure they do for all set-ups and playing styles. They feel a bit light and I now have the 2nd set on my Marconcini school bass which I hardly use outside of the office. They sound fine but I only played them on three concerts in 3 weeks back to back and one was mostly Pizz. I did the Beeth. 9th first, then the New World and last the Pops thing. Three concerts, three Orchestras. I had my work cut out for me. The 3rd venue was Pops and I used the Amp on a few tunes as well. I just don't know how they will work for Orchestral players that dig in hard as if they are using Original Flex's or the like. So far, I have no complaints. I just have to use them and see what happens.

Spiro Reds are fast and have more tension. For a lower action set-up like I use, I think you can play them harder. The 9th was such a workout, I don't know within a section of 7 basses how the bass itself did. My focus was on the 25 pages of DOTS they call music.

Like I said above, the next set I want to try on my Hart are Spiro reds. I know they take time to break in but I will just have to see. It all depends on how well these Kaplans work and last before I change sets again.

A few years ago I had a French Bass here with Reds on it. It was a screamer of a Bass and the Reds put a spotlight on that as well. Then with a customer here, we switches strings and put the Reds on a 5-string with a high C. Hearing him Bow that bass with Reds was impressive. Even on the bright French bass, the sound under the ear is not the same you hear in the next room. They do deserve some merit. I am just not sure I want to sound like that. I am the one that hears me before anyone else does and being the closest to the sound than any listener is, it can't put me in a panic mode on the first note!
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Old 05-31-2012, 12:32 AM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Fast response? I am not sure they do for all set-ups and playing styles. They feel a bit light and I now have the 2nd set on my Marconcini school bass which I hardly use outside of the office. They sound fine but I only played them on three concerts in 3 weeks back to back and one was mostly Pizz. I did the Beeth. 9th first, then the New World and last the Pops thing. Three concerts, three Orchestras. I had my work cut out for me. The 3rd venue was Pops and I used the Amp on a few tunes as well. I just don't know how they will work for Orchestral players that dig in hard as if they are using Original Flex's or the like. So far, I have no complaints. I just have to use them and see what happens.

Spiro Reds are fast and have more tension. For a lower action set-up like I use, I think you can play them harder. The 9th was such a workout, I don't know within a section of 7 basses how the bass itself did. My focus was on the 25 pages of DOTS they call music.

Like I said above, the next set I want to try on my Hart are Spiro reds. I know they take time to break in but I will just have to see. It all depends on how well these Kaplans work and last before I change sets again.

A few years ago I had a French Bass here with Reds on it. It was a screamer of a Bass and the Reds put a spotlight on that as well. Then with a customer here, we switches strings and put the Reds on a 5-string with a high C. Hearing him Bow that bass with Reds was impressive. Even on the bright French bass, the sound under the ear is not the same you hear in the next room. They do deserve some merit. I am just not sure I want to sound like that. I am the one that hears me before anyone else does and being the closest to the sound than any listener is, it can't put me in a panic mode on the first note!
Thanks for that Ken. Ha! I know what you mean about what you hear. I might go with those reds instead of the Kaplans - I don't want Kaplans if I don't get that fast response. I've got my second bass set up with a high C (C G D A) for some solo work I have coming up. I've got an old set of Corelli TX strings on (fairly stiff). The C string certainly sings! Who knows, maybe I'll finish up with reds on both basses (still with one high set)?
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Old 05-31-2012, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Prowse View Post
Thanks for that Ken. Ha! I know what you mean about what you hear. I might go with those reds instead of the Kaplans - I don't want Kaplans if I don't get that fast response. I've got my second bass set up with a high C (C G D A) for some solo work I have coming up. I've got an old set of Corelli TX strings on (fairly stiff). The C string certainly sings! Who knows, maybe I'll finish up with reds on both basses (still with one high set)?
Richard, I am not saying that the Kaplans are not fast. I just did Beeth. 9th with them on my Hart bass. There are some major fast parts in that piece. They worked great. I was only saying that I don't know what the hard core Orig.Flex. players will or do think about them. They are too new on the market to have all the opinions in. I like them and would be glad to stick with them if nothing else was available. What one string has, another string might lack and visa versa. Not every string does everything. I think they are worth the try. The tone is sweet. My bass likes them!
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Old 05-31-2012, 01:21 AM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Richard, I am not saying that the Kaplans are not fast. I just did Beeth. 9th with them on my Hart bass. There are some major fast parts in that piece. They worked great. I was only saying that I don't know what the hard core Orig.Flex. players will or do think about them. They are too new on the market to have all the opinions in. I like them and would be glad to stick with them if nothing else was available. What one string has, another string might lack and visa versa. Not every string does everything. I think they are worth the try. The tone is sweet. My bass likes them!
Thanks Ken, I'll keep them in the equation. The Corelli strings are doing a good job on the 'solo' bass. What are the Kaplans like at pizz?
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Old 05-31-2012, 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Prowse View Post
Thanks Ken, I'll keep them in the equation. The Corelli strings are doing a good job on the 'solo' bass. What are the Kaplans like at pizz?
The Hart is more of a dry sounding bass Pizz wise. Until last month, it was always used as an Orchestral bass, never for Jazz. It took me almost 5 years before I touched the bridge to fit it for my pick-up. Amplified, it did quite well as a jazz bass. Un-amped, I had 3 other basses playing with me in unison but it seemed to work well.
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Old 05-31-2012, 07:27 AM
Scott Pope Scott Pope is offline
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Ken, I know that you know, but for the rest of the crowd interested in Spiros, everyone needs to remember that there are five different sets of orchestra tuned Spiros, and then there are two solo sets, the quint tuning sets, and the fractional sets after that. Most people only talk about the S42 4/4 sets. For the standard tuned sets, in ascending order of tension, if all were fitted on the same bass:

S42W 4/4 Weich
3885W 3/4 Weich
S42 4/4 Mittel
3885 3/4 Mittel
S42 4/4 Stark

So that I could make an informed decision about fit on my particular instrument, I contacted Connolly about the differences in speaking lengths and silk lengths between the S42 4/4 and 3885 3/4 sets. They sent me a very explanatory email with a chart, but the chart is coded into the email, and I don't know how to reformat the chart so it is clear, and not just linear data. When I try to cut and paste the chart out of the email, I just get strings of numbers. I'd like to forward that to you. Please let me know either here or by PM how you would like me to send you that information.
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Old 05-31-2012, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Pope View Post
Ken, I know that you know, but for the rest of the crowd interested in Spiros, everyone needs to remember that there are five different sets of orchestra tuned Spiros, and then there are two solo sets, the quint tuning sets, and the fractional sets after that. Most people only talk about the S42 4/4 sets. For the standard tuned sets, in ascending order of tension, if all were fitted on the same bass:

S42W 4/4 Weich
3885W 3/4 Weich
S42 4/4 Mittel
3885 3/4 Mittel
S42 4/4 Stark

So that I could make an informed decision about fit on my particular instrument, I contacted Connolly about the differences in speaking lengths and silk lengths between the S42 4/4 and 3885 3/4 sets. They sent me a very explanatory email with a chart, but the chart is coded into the email, and I don't know how to reformat the chart so it is clear, and not just linear data. When I try to cut and paste the chart out of the email, I just get strings of numbers. I'd like to forward that to you. Please let me know either here or by PM how you would like me to send you that information.
Forward me the email to support@kensmithbasses.com

I think there is one set of Reds for a normal size bass that I consider mediums aka mittels. These other names and gauges are newer to me than what we had 30-40 years ago. That's all I know. Whatever a 4/4 is in their language, I have no idea. The modern 3/4 bass is a small instrument as compared to the manageable 7/8th which is actually a 3/4 or Orchestra Norm with and average body length of about 45 1/4". From 46-48" bodies, you are in the 4/4 range in my world. Maybe they need to make a 7/8th length? I will wait for your chart in my email.
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Old 05-31-2012, 11:27 AM
Scott Pope Scott Pope is offline
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Forward me the email to support@kensmithbasses.com
Email forwarded. I think the set everyone refers to as the "Reds Mittel" is the S42 Mittel set. I am using a 3885W E string with the Bels ADG and it is a great match for feel and tone on my bass.
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Old 05-31-2012, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Pope View Post
Email forwarded. I think the set everyone refers to as the "Reds Mittel" is the S42 Mittel set. I am using a 3885W E string with the Bels ADG and it is a great match for feel and tone on my bass.
I can't post that chart either. As far as the subject goes, what can you tell me if anything about Orchestral bowing for the Red set, medium gauge, either length.
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Old 05-31-2012, 04:55 PM
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Anselm Hauke Anselm Hauke is offline
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this one?

TI saiten.pdf
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Old 05-31-2012, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Anselm Hauke View Post
this one?

Attachment 2446
Wow, great. Much more info than the email but that was specifically for just one model.

Now that we have you here, I have mentioned that I think Spiro reds are more common in Europe for Orchestra than the states, I think. Can you elaborate a little on that in any way? I know you play bass in German Orchestras so your personal experience and observations with S.Reds would be warmly welcomed here.
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Old 06-01-2012, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Wow, great. Much more info than the email but that was specifically for just one model.

Now that we have you here, I have mentioned that I think Spiro reds are more common in Europe for Orchestra than the states, I think. Can you elaborate a little on that in any way? I know you play bass in German Orchestras so your personal experience and observations with S.Reds would be warmly welcomed here.
Yes Anselm, I'm really interested to hear your thoughts too.
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Old 06-01-2012, 04:37 AM
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well, i am not very active in symphony orchestras these days.
but i remember a majority of flexocore players.
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Old 06-01-2012, 08:31 AM
Scott Pope Scott Pope is offline
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The T-I downloadable pdf chart has been around a long time. It is useful, but limited. Tension specs are like a bird watcher's nature book. It will give you general descriptions and get you to the right area to try to see what you're looking for, but won't give you the final answer. A tension guide is not like an engineering manual where you consult the specifications desired to make a decision about structure. The tension specs will say nothing about tone, arco and pizz characteristics, that always subjective "feel," and so on. Finally, the speaking length measurements are necessary to see if a string will actually fit, especially for the E string: if the string is too long, especially for the E string (and B string if a 5), if too much speaking length is around the tuning post, it can affect the integrity of the string. (Mini rant: that's why I don't see the point of "traditional" tuning peg placement. Something like Upton does, reversing the stagger, is much more logical from a string silk leader perspective.)

One more limitation: you can't directly compare the tension specs for those strings listed as suitable for 110 cm mensure (T-I's version of "4/4") and those listed as suitable for 106 cm mensure (T-I's version of "3/4"). Tension varies as to the square of the difference in mensure, so to find out what the "real" tension of an S42 string when strung on a 106 cm mensure bass instead of a 110 cm mensure bass, some math has to be done. I did the math. My chart to directly compare the sets is over on TalkBass. Here is the raw data; this is the best I can do to get it into a nice chart with columns on this forum for ease of reading:

Code:
                           G    D    A    E   Total
S42 4/4 Light             55.3 59.3 61.4 63.4 239.4
S42 4/4 Medium            61.4 65.5 69.6 69.6 266.1
S42 4/4 Heavy             73.7 73.7 75.8 77.8 301.0
4/4 Solo @ 3/4 Orch       50.3 55.3 55.3 55.3 216.2
3/4 Solo @ 3/4 Orch       56.0 57.8 57.8 57.8 229.4
3885 3/4 Light            60.6 61.7 63.9 66.1 252.3
3885 3/4 Medium           67.2 68.3 70.5 72.8 278.8
When I have time, I'll see if I can take the email chart for silk and speaking lengths and try to do the same thing for here.

Last edited by Scott Pope; 06-01-2012 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 06-01-2012, 01:32 PM
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Cool Subject!!!!!

The Subject is Sprio REDS, the Mediums only. The size of your bass will determine which set you get, the S42s or the 3885s, All the other models and gauges are irrelevant at the moment as far as my question goes.

S42 4/4 Medium 61.4 65.5 69.6 69.6 = 266.1

3885 3/4 Medium 67.2 68.3 70.5 72.8 = 278.8

What do these numbers mean under my fingers and on my Neck or Bow? The 4/4 set is lower then the 3/4 set? When I ordered a normal set they sent me the 3885s according to my invoice. But, when I ordered a C ext. string for that same set, it was a C S44.

So, regardless of which length you need, the Red's are the Red's because you can't use a string too long or short for your bass.

As far as Tuning Peg placement goes, the reverse placement idea came from the French, back in the 19th century. The New Standards from Arnold and Wil come with reverse gears as well and have so for as long as I have known those basses. Many early-mid 20th century German basses from both Meyer and Pollmann have reverse tuners as well as 2 on the bass side of the 5ers. They too have realized the need for more after length on thicker strings. But, it is not so easy sometimes with reverse tuners to put a low C-extension on and use the top gear. In this case, the lower gear normal E post would be the longer after length for the E/C string.

The best way I have found for the Low E with standard placement of the gears is to put the E on the upper Gear like it would be if you had a C extension. This way, when switching back between a regular 4 and a bass with Ext., the E and A are on the same posts. On my 5er, I have 3 gears on the bass side so I put the A lowest, E middle and B the upper most peg, usually for the A. So in this case, the B switched with the A giving way to the larger string to be the longest after length. Ok, END of off topic!..

So, who here has experience with Orchestral Bowing using Spiro Reds, Medium gauge, Red at both ends?
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Old 06-02-2012, 09:00 AM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post



As far as Tuning Peg placement goes, the reverse placement idea came from the French, back in the 19th century. The New Standards from Arnold and Wil come with reverse gears as well and have so for as long as I have known those basses. Many early-mid 20th century German basses from both Meyer and Pollmann have reverse tuners as well as 2 on the bass side of the 5ers.
Actually, Ken, I think the G-low placement is a holdover from converted 3 stringers. Most of them had the two upper strings on the treble side of the pegbox, and the single string on the bass side. Then, when converting to 4 strings, many luthiers just filled the peg hole on the low side and drilled two holes there. That leaves the G string peg as the lowest in the pegbox. I've seen this on several converted basses. Most makers of 4 string basses keep the E string as the lowest, and conversions done early on often used plates, which were oriented that way as well.
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
Actually, Ken, I think the G-low placement is a holdover from converted 3 stringers. Most of them had the two upper strings on the treble side of the pegbox, and the single string on the bass side. Then, when converting to 4 strings, many luthiers just filled the peg hole on the low side and drilled two holes there. That leaves the G string peg as the lowest in the pegbox. I've seen this on several converted basses. Most makers of 4 string basses keep the E string as the lowest, and conversions done early on often used plates, which were oriented that way as well.
Ok, but I have seen it on French basses that started as 4s, no? Not to mention that all the Meyer and Pollmann's were 4s as well, right?

But besides that and BACK on Topic, your thoughts, opinions, observations or experiences with Spiro reds for Orchestral Bowing?
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