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  #1  
Old 11-10-2009, 06:37 AM
Nelson Cascais Nelson Cascais is offline
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Default Jerome Thibouville Lamy Bass?

Hi

I´m interested on buying this bass and I would like to know if it´s really a Lamy and the estimated value on the market.
The seller says that it´s a Lamy circa 1880.
And how about this bass maker? I know Bernardel, Vuillame and Jaquet but
I don´t know anything about Lamy.
I didn´t try it yet cause I´d have to travel so I want to know more about it before.
I play jazz.
The seller is asking 9000€, 13400 USD aprox.

Thanks!

Regards
Nelson
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  #2  
Old 11-10-2009, 08:37 AM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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At that price you are stealing that bass. Please contact me if you don't buy it, so I can. Oh wait, this is Ken's forum, I guess he gets first dibs.
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  #3  
Old 11-10-2009, 10:06 PM
Eric Rene Roy Eric Rene Roy is offline
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LOTS of info out there on JTL. Search Google...tons of info.

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  #4  
Old 11-11-2009, 05:05 AM
Nelson Cascais Nelson Cascais is offline
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Thank you!
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  #5  
Old 11-11-2009, 12:30 PM
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Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
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Cool Lamy..

I think it is important to realize that a Lamy bass is more of a factory made instrument than something hand made. I saw in a 1920-1930ish wholesale catalog Lamy Basses offered for some very low prices in competition with the German made instruments of that time.

Being machine carved in a factory you can expect the bass to be very heavily wooded inside which will affect the tone. Fully re-graduated plates will improve the sound but restoring and improving a bass like this will cost in the thousands even if you don't have a single crack to fix.

The String lengths are often long on these Cello shouldered basses and the neck sets less than desirable. I currently own a Vuillaume style bass by Mougenot that is in restoration. This bass is totally hand made and the graduations are actually good as left by the maker. The Bass is long and the neck must be replaced and reset to achieve a better playing length.

These basses average 42-43" (107-109cm) string lengths on the ones I have seen and I would say closer to 43" (109cm) in most cases. These Basses were the full sized orchestra instruments in their time from what I can tell. The reason you see these used in Jazz is because the tone produce is usually less than desirable under the bow.

If you are considering one of these basses, make sure you understand exactly what this is and the costs involved if you want to bring it up to par with a hand made version of a similar Vuillaume style model as this one is.

In my opinion and I stress that opinion part, a bass that is good for jazz and not for orchestra has a much lower value, period. If good and desirable for orchestra and all the work done to make it optimum for playing, then the value is much higher.

I would also caution you as to the date of this bass. I think that 1880 although possible seems a bit early for the condition. Also, the fact that they were making these well into the 20th century, one must consider that post WWI 1920-1930 is equally possible as well. That being said, the 40-50 year difference in the estimate would definitely affect the value as in the eye of the market, it becomes 20th century and not 19th century. Not a hundred years, but in text, it seems so.

One thing you cannot get away from are those broad Cello-like shoulders. I do see Orchestra players using them but just about everyone I have talked to that owns one wishes they could have a more friendly upper register for solo playing. France did produce an extreme sloped shoulder model in the same period but not much in between. Those basses have a different set of problems for orchestra due to the size and shape. Nanny however did endorse this as solo playing on the bass back then was booming. Unfortunately, the tone wasn't!

Be careful and good luck with your search.
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Old 11-11-2009, 08:15 PM
Nelson Cascais Nelson Cascais is offline
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Hi Ken

Your post is very elucidating. I´ll be very carefull.

The mesurements of this Lamy bass are:
String length: 105.5cm; back 113cm; upper bouts 53.5cm; lower bouts 69cm; ribs 20cm tapering to 17cm.

The owner says that he has been using it for orquestra work.

I´m gona ask him to mesure the top thickness.

Thanks
Regards
Nelson
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  #7  
Old 11-11-2009, 08:55 PM
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Cool Top thickness?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson Cascais View Post
Hi Ken

Your post is very elucidating. I´ll be very careful.

The measurements of this Lamy bass are:
String length: 105.5cm (est. 41.5"); back 113cm (est. 44.5"); upper bouts 53.5cm (est. 21"+); lower bouts 69cm (est. 27"+); ribs 20cm (est. 7 7/8") tapering to 17cm (est. 6.7").

The owner says that he has been using it for orchestra work.

I´m gonna ask him to measure the top thickness.

Thanks
Regards
Nelson
Measuring the Top graduations requires special tools. I doubt that anyone other than a Luthier has the tool for that Job with the Top attached. It needs the magnetic caliper that can float around the Top, both surfaces at the same time.

I think that 105.5 is a very good length. Most of the earlier French Basses seems to be longer. Being a Flatback the climate is important where this bass lives. If it is near you then it could be a good purchase because the bass will not have to change environment all that much. If the bass was shipped over to USA from Europe or the UK then we could expect problems with the Bass and Back in the winter seasons within the first year or two and possibly more.
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  #8  
Old 11-12-2009, 08:33 AM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Being machine carved in a factory you can expect the bass to be very heavily wooded inside which will affect the tone. Fully re-graduated plates will improve the sound but restoring and improving a bass like this will cost in the thousands even if you don't have a single crack to fix.





Ken, I think you paint Lamy basses a bit one-dimensionally. I have seen Lamy's that would compete with anything in terms of workmanship and sound. There is a magnificent one in National Symphony (you can see its lion-head scroll on my website). The plates on that bass are not thick, the detail work is excellent, and overall I'd give the bass a spirited thumbs-up.
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  #9  
Old 11-12-2009, 09:14 AM
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Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
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Lightbulb ok.. but..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
Ken, I think you paint Lamy basses a bit one-dimensionally. I have seen Lamy's that would compete with anything in terms of workmanship and sound. There is a magnificent one in National Symphony (you can see its lion-head scroll on my website). The plates on that bass are not thick, the detail work is excellent, and overall I'd give the bass a spirited thumbs-up.
Ok, but we haven't seen this bass in person, any of us. The data on J.T.L. points to a factory. The Lion heads are done by Guild Carvers as that was a rule there then, no?.. Also, the bass you had there may have been re-graduated to its current state. Possible? Your buddy Jeff told me about a heavily wooded Lamy that was 'improved' in another shop many years ago. When done, it was so good that the shop owner being confused put in a more famous label thinking that the Lamy label was incorrect despite the insistence that the bass was a Lamy. That bass is now in use as something else due to the results.

I agree that these can be very nice basses and that the French Factory basses were better than the German factory instruments of the same period. The point is that although looking like a Vuillaume in shape and model, they are just not.

By the way, I know you have had at least one Vuillaume there in the shop (I saw it there) so how would you compare the two basses in sound?

The price to buy in dollars with bank rates and currency commission would be about $14k before shipping. Add that, a good set up, Fingerboard and Bridge maybe. Also a possible Neck Re-set and if this bass is wood from Europe, include some repairs if the back center opens or the Top splits from winter shrinkage in a year of two before it's sold. So.. what is the inventoried cost at that point? How fast do these French Cello models sell at market price?

My point is that locally, it may be a good or fair in the least 'individual' purchase. Across the Pond wholesale, the deal isn't quite as sweet looking.

If the Bass was here in the states for 50 years already then it would be something to persue but to bring it here and have it experience our climate for the first time could be very costly. The Mougenot I have came over here around 20 years ago as confirmed with the previous owner. The repairs from changing the geographic home of the Bass will not come cheap. The difference is that repairs cost the same per hour regardless of the pedigree of the Bass. Fixing a hand made Vuillaume or a Mougenot (Vuillaume school bass) is a smaller percentage of the worth of the bass when comparing it to a turn of the century factory French Bass.
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  #10  
Old 11-13-2009, 08:37 AM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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Portugal has a temperate climate and is not nearly as damp as the British Isles. I would not be overly concerned about importing a bass from there, especially if one is reasonably careful about maintaining decent humidity through the winter.

As far as the J.T. Lamy company using machines to rough-carve their bass plates--what difference does that make? If two instruments look and sound identical, and were made in the same shop, but one was rough-carved on machinery, does that significantly detract from its value? And how would one know?
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  #11  
Old 11-13-2009, 11:17 AM
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Cool well..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
Portugal has a temperate climate and is not nearly as damp as the British Isles. I would not be overly concerned about importing a bass from there, especially if one is reasonably careful about maintaining decent humidity through the winter.

As far as the J.T. Lamy company using machines to rough-carve their bass plates--what difference does that make? If two instruments look and sound identical, and were made in the same shop, but one was rough-carved on machinery, does that significantly detract from its value? And how would one know?
Correct BUT if the Plates are overly thick, re-graduating might be needed to optimize the sound. Just speculating here as none of us has seen this Bass.

So, is this Bass coming my way?
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  #12  
Old 12-17-2011, 07:02 AM
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Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
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Thumbs up Lamy Gamba..

I just got in one of these basses but it was restored about 2 years ago and modified as well at that time from 3 to 4 string so it was probably in storage un-played for quite some time.

Most of the things mentioned above were performed to improve the bass and results are impressive.

- The top was re-graduated.

- The flatback was also partially re-graduated where it was overly thick around the edges.

- The original single 'stair-step' center brace was replaced by a a single long diagonal brace.

- The long beechwood neck was replaced with a shorter maple neck graft shortening the string length down to 42".

- The neck-stand and block set were also improved for optimum playability.

After looking over the measurements of several J.-T. Lamy basses for sale or recently sold on-line I noticed that the violin cornered models were mostly under 42" string lengths and the gambas models with bigger overall body dimensions averaged at 42" or slightly bigger.

The bass I just acquired although quite large in the *7/8ths class (*USA measured), it plays quite easily with its current set up. The sound is nice and loose, huge, sweet and not at all typical French sounding due to its recent restoration work.

As I mentioned about, these French basses can be very nice if modifications are performed. The tone is very pleasing with the Bow and suitable for Orchestra or Jazz playing as well.
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  #13  
Old 12-17-2011, 07:04 AM
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
At that price you are stealing that bass. Please contact me if you don't buy it, so I can. Oh wait, this is Ken's forum, I guess he gets first dibs.
I also noticed this exact same bass here in the states now at another shop. I hear that it is selling now for quite a bit more than it was going for in Europe. Perhaps that dealer saw it here and went after it for his inventory. Maybe!
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  #14  
Old 12-17-2011, 07:19 AM
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Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
Ken, I think you paint Lamy basses a bit one-dimensionally. I have seen Lamy's that would compete with anything in terms of workmanship and sound. There is a magnificent one in National Symphony (you can see its lion-head scroll on my website). The plates on that bass are not thick, the detail work is excellent, and overall I'd give the bass a spirited thumbs-up.
Now that I have one in my hands and fully restored with the necessary modifications, I can see that these basses can sound as good as any other French makers bass, possibly better. It's like re-making a bass using 120 year old seasoned wood. Mine is a bit more on the plain side with medium figured maple back, lightly figured ribs and scratched purfling lines around both the top and back plates but has beautiful original French red varnish. According to an old 1891 Lamy catalog page I found, this was the middle grade flatback model. The next model up had the Purfling inlaid, same wood. This was made originally as a 3-string and remained that way until 2 years ago when it was finally modified to 4 strings. The bottom end is quite powerful.

Although not labeled or stamped, the Scroll, FFs and overall model is identical to other confirmed/marked Lamy basses. Others as well as myself estimate this bass to be from about 1890 comparing it to other similar examples.
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  #15  
Old 01-06-2012, 10:33 PM
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Thumbs up speaking of..

Here is the Link to the Lamy we got in recently. Enjoy the view!
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