The 'D' Neck issue..

[Ken Smith]

Well, first off I have to say that my original teachings do not fully agree with the way and/or method in which a D-Neck is measured or what a D-Neck actually is at the Heel.

Here's my take on this. The hand position as taught to me has the thumb behind the upper edge of your 2nd finger or behind it, NOT behind the first finger! With the thumb in the Heel of the Neck with normal left hand playing position, the 1st finger will be a D-note and the 2nd finger parallel to the thumb or close to it will be an Eb. With the current method of measuring the Note parallel to the thumb what was taught to me as a D-Neck is called an Eb Neck. The main contradiction I have is that when I play the D on that Neck, My thumb is already on the Heel. If I want to play an F with the 4th finger, it is a bit of a stretch if the parallel note to the Hell is a D and not an Eb. If the note at the Heel is a D, then with proper hand positioning having the thumb parallel behind the 2nd finger or close to it the 1st finger is playing a Db. Why isn't that called a Db Neck then? Is measuring the Heel stop NOT related to playing with proper technique?

Every Bass I play with the so-called D-Neck feels short to me and hard to reach the F note on the G and even harder to play across the strings in that position. Maybe it's because I grew up on this type of Neck and playing position which is different from 'Luthier position'..

Wouldn't it be nice if we were all n the same page? I asked one older Luthier about this and how we all of a sudden lost the old traditional D-Neck (or was it really 'Eb Luthier minor b6') and he said "it's the Teachers"!..

I like having the Eb parallel to my first finger in the Heel or 2nd finger with proper hand positioning. This is how I learned and played in the beginning. My old Italian Bass was closer to a Db-Neck to me just after its restoration in 1973 but the length was shortened from 44" to just a bit over 42". On that Bass, I re-cut the Heel myself and moved the Bridge to the top of the Notches. It was not 'perfect' but I got used to it. The sound was 'heaven' so all was forgiven.

The 2 Basses I have now that have what I consider a 'proper' D-Neck (Luthiers Eb) are my Batchelder and Hart. These are the most comfortable for note climbing between the lower and upper/thumb positions. When playing the shorter D-version, I feel that I need an extra stretch or shift to play over the shoulders.

So, did this all change at some point or are there just different languages between playing and set-up between Luthiers and Players?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

The current "standard" for a D neck is for the first finger to encounter D on the G string at the heel when said first finger is directly across from the thumb. I also was taught the Simandl "claw" where your second finger is across from the thumb, but current teaching seems to have standardized a more relaxed left hand technique where the thumb is either across from the first finger or hanging back some toward the nut. I have one client who uses the Streicher method and whenever he plays one of my necks he swears it's an Eb neck! His bass has a really flat D.

What it all boils down to is setting up the heel so the player is comfortable. Good players get used to anything, and many don't even know what "D neck" means. When necking a bass to be marketed, I believe it should be set up to the current "standard". Wood can always be removed, but you can't put it back.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

The current "standard" for a D neck is for the first finger to encounter D on the G string at the heel when said first finger is directly across from the thumb. I also was taught the Simandl "claw" where your second finger is across from the thumb, but current teaching seems to have standardized a more relaxed left hand technique where the thumb is either across from the first finger or hanging back some toward the nut. I have one client who uses the Streicher method and whenever he plays one of my necks he swears it's an Eb neck! His bass has a really flat D.

What it all boils down to is setting up the heel so the player is comfortable. Good players get used to anything, and many don't even know what "D neck" means. When necking a bass to be marketed, I believe it should be set up to the current "standard". Wood can always be removed, but you can't put it back.

This is what I thought but I don't agree on the method change of how to measure a D. In my opinion Arnold, and you know first hand how I personally feel about it, there is 'nothing' 'relaxed' about stretching to play across the 5th Position (Simandl 'Claw' V) with the first finger on the F of the A-string and the 4th finger playing the octave F on the G-string with all the other notes in between on the D-string etc. Playing Jazz often crosses the upper strings more often when playing octave lines and riffs while in Classical playing it is done less often while moving around. Playing the 5th position on the E string is a real strain on the E-string with a D-Neck as they call it now.

I am aware of the various modern styles of playing today mainly incorporated for Solo playing but having played in Orchestra now for the last 5 years, I haven't seen the need for me to personally change anything. I played a fine old Italian Bass one day in Philly as it was brought off stage (Philly Orch. Bass) and noticed two things. This Orchestra veteran's Bass had not only an Eb neck but a string length near 42.5-43". I mentioned about the Hell being cut way down and the length being long. His reaction, "I like it that way"!.. So, I guess I am not alone with the so called Eb Neck preference. My Hart has it but my Gilkes is sort of in between.

I have been practicing with the Batchelder since I wrote this thread and find that I prefer the Eb Neck (as it's called now) for all types of playing, Orchestra and Jazz..

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Yes, many players like an Eb neck because of enhanced ease playing in those transition positions. But the D has become a guidepost for many, and is now the standard. Another thing to consider is that many bass bodies will not accept an Eb neck because there won't be any heel left, especially if the maker designed it with a D neck in mind. In fact I have a bass on my bench which was made by a contemporary maker. The owner insisted on an Eb neck and the result is a very short heel with little strength, as there is a high overstand. That's an accident waiting to happen.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

Yes, many players like an Eb neck because of enhanced ease playing in those transition positions. But the D has become a guidepost for many, and is now the standard. Another thing to consider is that many bass bodies will not accept an Eb neck because there won't be any heel left, especially if the maker designed it with a D neck in mind. In fact I have a bass on my bench which was made by a contemporary maker. The owner insisted on an Eb neck and the result is a very short heel with little strength, as there is a high overstand. That's an accident waiting to happen.

Yes, I can see the design problems but I have longer Neck'd Basses with the Eb as well. The problem with them was usually the String length. My Loveri has a longish Neck so the easiest fix was a 'false' Ebony Nut adjoined to the regular Nut. I also did this years (actually decades) ago on a 7/8th Bass by Anton Wilfer, 1936/39? which were the early Juzek Master Art Basses. Many of the earlier Germanic Basses had 43-44" string lengths with Eb Necks. This was quite common.

Still, I have come to realize that the Eb Neck for me is my favorite for playing the upper positions and up into TP as well. I also like easy playing Basses with under 42" lengths.. Like having your Cake and eating too. Sometimes you just can't..

Arnold, thanks for your detailed and educational explanation.

[Pino Cazzaniga]

This is amusing, somehow.
Here the current preference is the one you said, Ken, the thumb at the heel, the second finger opposite, the first finger plays D on the first string.
The trend is for a little stretch of the first finger toward the nut to reach D.
And we name it D neck.
There are many long neck grafts, made until the '60, where in the same position, thumb at the heel, second finger opposite, the first finger plays Eb. We name these Eb necks.
I don't know why they made these long neck grafts, probably they wanted to reach more notes with the hand at the heel in orchestra playing, and a longer string lenght for the gut strings they used these days.
Anyways, the D neck as we call it here, or the "proper" D neck you said, allow us some freedom to find a better balance for middle positions, where some variables are neck height over the top, body outline near the neck, string lenght, bridge height, stop lenght and so on.
It's over the standard, a good reason to play and work on basses, I hope.