Hawkes & Son.. (The Official KSB Hawkes Bass Discussion Thread)

[Ken Smith]

Personally I have known about the Hawkes 'series' Basses since I was in High School and that's before some of our members were born..lol

I first learned about them from the Elgar book. The confusion for me has been the Hawkes Bass models and where they have been made. I include this Thread in the English section 'only' because the Firm was located in London. I do not at all imply that 'all' of the Basses were of English make. In fact, the majority of them were imported from Germany and some from France.

"Known as Hawkes & Co. from 1860 to 1875, the firm was first established in 1860 as an importer of brass instruments in London by William Henry Hawkes (1830-1900).."

Rivière & Hawkes; "This partnership in London between William H. Hawkes and Jules Prudence Rivière (b Aix-en-Othe 6 Nov 1819; d 1900) was begun in 1865 with the establishment of the journal, The Musical Progress (Newsome 1998, 95). It specialized in brass and military band music. The company was called "Rivière & Hawkes" by 1876. Rivière had emigrated to England in 1857. The company dissolved with the withdrawal of Rivière in 1889. Their business was located at 54 Castle Street, Leicester Square."

The above two paragraphs are from the link listed above. Why did I include that? Well, one of the bigger confusions to me are the French made basses and the dates of "Riviere and Hawkes", the name itself.

I have seen a few Basses listed as Riviere and Hawkes with proper dates before 1889 and they were spitting images of a Jacquet Vuillaume style French Bass. One was offered to me as an attributed Claudot but I passed on it. After it was sold, the Top was taken off and an old Riviere and Hawkes label was found under the dust inside the Bass. This was the real deal. A French made Hawkes. I also have to make mention here to the Contrabass Shoppe in England. They have posted several Hawkes' of all 4 models made in 3 different countries, Germany, France (R&H) and England. Tony Houska of the CB Shoppe also has some very good information on the companies activities. Still, there is information yes to be discovered. Tony mentions who made them most likely in France, the R&H models. The English made ones are reported to have been made by the Hawkes & Son (company name after 1889) by their string repairer named Robert Green. This I believe is mentioned in the Raymond Elgar book.

Recently I have seen two so called 'Riviere and Hawkes' Basses for sale. One looks like the Concert model and is labeled as such with the R&H label dated 1897 but looks German made. The other has a Bohemian type emblem similar to an old Juzek type Bass (not Juzek though) and is dated 1910. These are both impossible because the Riviere and Hawkes company was dissolved in 1889 which is on record.

The four general types of Hawkes Basses I am aware of which I think start with the Riviere and Hawkes company name are;

1) the French looking Basses similar to Vuillaume models,

2) the Panormo model Round Back with a Purfled "H" under the Neck Button (2 or 3 sizes known) later made after 1890? (until at least 1924 where their catalog still offered a 3-string option),

3) the Concert model Round Back and outer Rib Linings sometimes with a Purfled "F" under the Neck Button which is similar to the Panormo but have been advertised by dealers as made either in France with the "F", Germany or even London. This Concert 'middle' model origin-wise is the most confusing to me and

4) the Professor model similar model to the Panormo and Concert but with a Flat Back and outer Rib Linings. These are usually advertised as German made but I have seen at least one listed as made in London.

Well, this has been as confusing to me as I guess it is to you reading this. Regardless of where the Basses were made, they all carried the Hawkes label with the company address as London. That label has 'zip' to do with where they were actually made. Were all the Professor models made in Germany? Were all the Panormo models made in London? Were any of the Panormo'ish models made in France with outer Rib Linings?

Try looking up any of the names I mentioned above in the Violin Books and see what you come up with. Practically nothing. The reason I mention 'Houska above with his Link is because he has offered the most 'real' and historical information about this company. For that we must all thank him and others as well when they put the work in to uncover lost history.

I recently took in a Hawkes Professor for evaluation as a possible trade towards another Bass I have in the Shop but this one is unlabeled. I spoke with the restorer who knows this Bass from the inside out and brought it back to life from its neglected state about 4 years ago. I also sent pictures to several Shops in London as well as a few I know here in USA. They all agree that it is more than likely a German made Professor. Then I asked a each one of them where in Germany were they made and by whom if at all possible. Some had no idea or in one case a dealer who shall remain nameless said he knew exactly what it is and by whom but would not give out 'free' information.. lol.. Ok.. no Problemo.. A few couldn't say as they don't really know for sure and were honest about it. Three other opinions ranged from Hornsteiner? (Mittenwald school), Rubner? (Markneukirchen) and from a shop/s in Shoenbach/Luby (German Czech border). Basically, somewhere in Germany! My opinion from the Scroll and Scroll varnish (which is the only pure example of it being the Bass body was entirely over-varnished out of necessity) is in agreement with the Mittenwald/Hornsteiner/ish theory.

Here are a few Pics of this Professor which by London standards of the Hawkes models is the bottom of 'that' particular 'food chain'. My friend owns a newly acquired English? Panormo "H" model Hawkes and brought it to my shop the other day to compare with mine. His has more bottom end spread. This one has a slightly smoother silky tone and for me easier to play over the shoulders with the Flat Back. His Bass in the market place though brings more money because of the model and condition as well.

Here's a German made Professor (3-string converted to 4);


This Bass however regardless of how nice she looks still needs some repairs and set-up work. I have played it at one Orchestra rehearsal so far but only as a road test to better evaluate it.

If you have a Hawkes Bass of any variety or think you do, please post it here on this thread for discussion. Be careful with using pics from other websites. I don't know what the exact Web laws are but being that we have been doing this for years, it should be done in a respectful manner if at all.

[Eric Hochberg]

Ken, this bass reminds me of a Hawkes a friend of mine was considering a few years ago. I think that bass lived in Kansas City at the time. I remember a broken violin corner repair... Can you tell if that is the original scroll?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg

Ken, this bass reminds me of a Hawkes a friend of mine was considering a few years ago. I think that bass lived in Kansas City at the time. I remember a broken violin corner repair... Can you tell if that is the original scroll?

The Restorer seems to believe it is as well as all the others that have seen it. Still, no guarantee but it does fit the Bass well. It was a 3-string Scroll and was converted a long time ago from the similar but not identical 4th Gear used.

I will try and find out where the Bass was before 2003/4, the completion date of the restoration being 2004.

[Anselm Hauke]

i´ve often seen hawkes´ that were as dark as this one. the most seemed to be overvarnished to me.
ken, do you think the color is original?

edit: and i´ve seen many light brown/golden/red ones, that looked much better imho
edit2: nothing against this bass, sure it´s a great instrument

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Anselm Hauke

i´ve often seen hawkes´ that were as dark as this one. the most seemed to be overvarnished to me.
ken, do you think the color is original?

edit: and i´ve seen many light brown/golden/red ones, that looked much better imho
edit2: nothing against this bass, sure it´s a great instrument

Well, the Varnish on the Scroll looks 100% original. If the Scroll matches the Bass which most believe it does, then the color was dark to begin with. I was told that the Varnish was a mess already on the Bass when it reached the Restorer. He did his best to match it back up. I don't know how much of the Bass has original Varnish or if any of it is aside from the Scroll.

On the origin, we do not know where these were made or if they were made in different German shops over the years. The guesses of both Rubner and Hornsteiner could both be correct if the demand was there of if changes were made at different time periods. If I had to choose between these two sources providing they were correct then I would go with the Hornsteiner as that's what it resembles most as far as the varnish on the Scroll and the FFs. The Model is totally English with a mixture or Panormo which includes Maggini with the Flat Back. It is possible that several different shops produced these Basses over time using the patterns and Specs (inside and out) provided by Hawkes of London, hence the English look!

[Ken Smith]

On the UK Gallery Strings website they talk about the Basses in order they were produced with the French being first and then the Flatback German model with the Panormo being last to come. The Contrabass website seperately lists the French model history from the other 3 models. On one Bass they have in the Archives which is a Flatback Professor model they make mention of the original label in the Bass "The instrument bears it is original Hawkes & Son label from Denmark Street, Piccadilly Circus, London dated 1904, No 3160."

Does this imply that it was made in London or just the company's address that imported and sold them?

Gallery Strings also shows a Professor model that claims it was actually made in London ("one that was actually made in London c1910"), and not Germany (Saxony) where the Flatbacks were reportedly made.

So, just more confusion I think and the reason for starting this thread to begin with. So many Basses produced but with practically no traceable history to read about in the Violin books other than a few mentions here and there.

[RobertRyanAshley]

Riviere and Hawkes? Jacquet? Derazey? Maucotel?
Labeled Joseph Rocca 1836
Not sure if a false button was removed at some point and replaced by that fleur-de-lys -esque inlay.

[RobertRyanAshley]

Sorry didn't realize those pics were quite so large.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by RobertRyanAshley

Sorry didn't realize those pics were quite so large.

First off, try reading this and maybe you can edit the size down. http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=100

On the Bass itself I think it's French. I saw one other bass labeled from Turin by an Italian maker (Rocca I think was from Turin as well) that was a dead ringer for a Mirecourt Bass. Turin is so close to France that the culture is intermingled. So might be the distribution and re-labeling business.

This bass above was first on line from Lemur a few years ago. The Gears are Italian as I had a Bass years ago with those very same gears. I was told they dated to about 1880. The bass on the other hand is a Vuillaume style influenced pattern. Whom ever came up with it first I can't say but most of the credit usually goes to JB Vuillaume.

I don't know who the maker is there but I would not say Riviere-Hawkes. Those Basses are from Joseph Jacquet who partnered with a man named Barbezant and became Jacquet-Barbezant. The Gears on all of these Basses are the typical Mirecourt gears. It is also possible that the Scroll is either not original or someone found the gears and replaced the ones from Mirecourt. I don't think that bass is as old as labeled. Maybe off by 50 years or so. A french bass re-labeled and sold by a shop in Turin? That is also a possibility.

Just guessing from the Pics. Only a personal in and out inspection could 'maybe' determine what that bass was meant to be.

[Eric Hochberg]

Came across this, Ken. Are you familiar with Bailey and any connection to R&H? English made?

http://www.sothebys.com/en/search.ht...=double%20bass

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg

Came across this, Ken. Are you familiar with Bailey and any connection to R&H? English made?

http://www.sothebys.com/en/search.ht...=double%20bass

Never heard his name before. Perhaps he was hired to finish up or set-up the basses if supplied incomplete or un-finished in the white that was supplied by on of the French Firms. Also, British firms have been known to label or brand instruments that they only sell in their shop made by others, new and old.

I have seen pictured a few R & H basses and two in person that were claimed to be. One was false as the date was off by over 20 years and German/Bohemian made and the other was 100% a French bass that first was thought to be a Claudot or Jacquet. Only after the bass was opened for restoration was the label found hidden inside from R&H. The R&H firm/name was closed in 1889 and then the name of Hawkes & Son replaced it. I think they have to date 1880-1889 to be genuine regardless of the label used or the dealers opinion.

[Matthew Tucker]

Received into workshop a nice "Hawkes Panormo" model roundback for restoration.



very nice smooth Baker style tuners






Has the H purfling, no outside linings, and a roundback.



It's in for scroll graft and badly needed top restoration. Back, ribs and blocks are in excellent condition.




The top is pretty funky. Lots of important cracks and a full edging required. And probably a new bassbar with cleats under!



It has some labels inside. But before showing these, knowing what we know in this thread so far, where do you reckon this one was made? (as if it matters to anyone but bass nerds)

[Ken Smith]

Matt, I had an 1894 Hawkes a couple of years ago. I don't know when the model names started like Professor, Concert and Panormo but from looking inside a couple of these I have learned something.

Please look inside the back of your bass here and tell me if there is a platform under the soundpost as part of the back itself coming from the c-bout area of the back to about a 5"x6" area.

The 1894 Concert model had this platform carved out of the back. I brokered a 1921 'H' model Hawkes a few years ago and never looked at the inside as far as that feature goes. Recently when that bass was back for a visit, I looked inside and there it was, the same platform as on the older Concert model. I say Concert because it was a roundback and had outer linings. This is what we call the Concert model regardless if the name was in use then. The Hawkes & Son brand started around 1889 for these basses as far as I know.

I had pass thru my shop or have seen a French Jacquet made Riverie & Hawkes, an 'F' model, an 'H' model and the Flat and Round back models with outer linings. I have seen claims to other basses being called French that were not and some basses called Hawkes of one style or another that bared no resemblance. It seems like some dealers just want a name attached to their bass for sale purposes.

From that internal platform alone under the post, I think it is German in make. Possibly the 'H' and maybe earlier 'F' models were sold 'in the white' and completed in England but I don't see these as English or French basses. I have seen basses by Rubner and Dolling as well, made in Saxony c.1900 that were Hawkes 'looking' bass models. One Hawkes I saw had the name 'Joseph Rubner' inside of it marking the shop/maker that produced the bass for Hawkes.

From 1889 thru the 1930s, we see several versions of each model of bass with a Hawkes label. I can only think that they contracted to whom ever would make basses for them. Possibly more than one shop at the same time in some periods.

The basses by R&H from 1880-1889 (approx) where totally French model Jacquet family basses. I currently have a bass in restoration that has an English style scroll on a French model Jacquet-school bass and is original to the bass. This could be a R&H as well or just another Jacquet made for the English market that was sold to a different shop or brand.

Contractors will make you what you want. Give the same plans to 10 different shops and you will get 10 different versions of them. I have seen this within the Hawkes brand. It is historic in English violin history, 'why make when you can import!'

Also, the 'H' models had English Baker style gears. The outer lining German looking models (Concert/rnd bk and Professor/flt bk) have French Mirecourt Gears.. NOT German Gears. So, the Gears do not make the origin of the Bass. Confusing, but that's business..

[Matthew Tucker]

This has no platform under the soundpost.

[Matthew Tucker]

Here are a few labels:









I've tried enhancing this last one many ways, looking with a magnifier etc, but the faded stamp is very hard to make out. I'll keep trying.

This last label is interesting.

[Ken Smith]

See, my idea is correct. This looks to have a German Varnish or at least not the golden Varnish I have seen on other H or F models.

BUT, that seal that says Boosey & Hawkes is the latter company after Hawkes & Son. Founded in 1930..

This statement "Hawkes & Son (later Rivière & Hawkes),[2] a rival to Boosey & Company, was founded in 1865" Is actually incorrect according to my research. Hawkes & Son came after Riveire & Hawkes dissolved in 1889. Wiki pages are not 100% guaranteed to be accurate.

Oh and Matt, thanks for the labels. This is a great find. It is the first 'H' model I have seen with a German label. Perhaps this one was sold too quick before it could be re-labeled as English.