J B Vuillaume

[Martin Sheridan]

I have only seen one J B Vuillaume double bass, but I've got to believe that some of the luthiers who read this forum must have seen and worked on a few. A friend of mine has a Bernadel that is a copy of the bass Vuillaume is usually associated with. Vuillaume came across a Bergonzi bass made in Cremona that was cello shaped. He extended the back and top to give it sloping shoulders ( by grafting wood). On the back he left the original button and made a new one at the top of the extension of the back. Although I think he made other basses prior to this he is generally assocated with this model where he imitated the double button. I have seen four or five Mirecourt factory basses that are copies and Roger Millant said that Vuillaume actually had his brother make these basses for him in Mirecourt. The Mirecourt factory basses generally have a rather bold red varnish that is typical of a lot of the instruments that came out of there. The Vuillaume I saw had a lovely medium brown or amber varnish.

About ten years ago a musician told me that Vuillaume graduated the tops of his basses to 6mm all over. Can anyone confirm this?
Does anyone else have any photos or information on these basses.
I'm going to use the Bernadel because I have access to it, but I might be able to get in touch with the owner of the Vuillaume to check to see if the measurements are indeed the same.

I haven't decided yet if I want to imitate the double button.

[Ken Smith]

I have seen only one Vuillaume. It was nearly identical to a George Gemunder that I have seen and played. I also know a Derazey Bass that is a Vuillaume model as it was Derazey who also made Basses for JB. The brother you refer to of JB is Nicholas, correct? N.F. Vuillaume moved to Brussels (Bruxelles) who later employed G. Mougenot of whom I have a Bass made the same year he took over the Shop of NF Vuillaume in Belgium. This bass I have looks just like a Vuillaume as well. On the Bernadel mention, which one is it, father or one of the sons? I also once owned a beautiful Bass by Gustave Bernadel c.1859. The Shoulders of all the Bernadel's I have seen are slightly more sloped than those of the Claudot's and Jacquet's as well as the makers of Vuillaume.

I do not know for sure if Mougenot was ever a maker for Vuillaume either directly or thru N.F but the model is nearly the same. On the graduations, I have never heard that 6mm# of Vuillaume but did hear that of Panormo. Perhaps if true, Vuillaume followed Panormo on the gauging.

The general complaints about these French models but not all of them are that the Shoulders are hard to get over, the string lengths often long, the 'stop' is long and the sound is often nasal as compared to other large basses. 'That French sound' is often spoken from people listening or playing many of these basses. Then again, 'that Italian sound' that English sound' and 'that German sound' is often mentioned once the players know the origin of the bass. Maybe they think it's just something to say to sound smart or maybe in some cases the generic national sound they hear is true.

I would love to see pictures of both this Vuillaume and the Bernadel you speak of. In the Elgar book there are two Bernadel Pere' basses listed. One one of them (p.139) you can see with a magnifier that the upper back has a purfled design like the factory basses with Pfretzschner and Morelli labels have along with some other German productions. I suspect that bass to be German and not French. Perhaps just one more error that Elgar has published.

[Brian Glassman]

http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/m...tion-musee.htm

I saw a supposed Vuillaume double bass here; go to photos and search Vuillaume


LégendeExposition Vuillaume : contrebasse, Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, 1860; alto, Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, 1861; violon, Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, 1863; violon dit ″le faisan doré″, Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, 1863; le quatuor ″des évangélistes″, Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, 1863; face; autre collection

PhotographeFessy, GeorgesDescriptionektachrome, couleur0244644Exemplaires

Localisation Cote Documentation du Musée 23098

[Ken Smith]

Interesting Vuillaume. The FFs with exception to the slant look just like the Mougenot. Perhaps he used the pattern from NF Vuillaume who you mentioned made Basses for him before moving just north to Belgium.

Another thing of interest is that I was told but one so called authority that Vuillaume never made a 3-string Bass. The Octobass is a 3 but this bass as well is 3-string too. The one I say as well as the Derazey, Gemunder and Mougenot were are 4-string from the start.

Maybe Vuillaume made both and my contact was incorrect.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Brian Glassman

http://mediatheque.cite-musique.fr/m...tion-musee.htm

I saw a supposed Vuillaume double bass here; go to photos and search Vuillaume


LégendeExposition Vuillaume : contrebasse, Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, 1860; alto, Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, 1861; violon, Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, 1863; violon dit ″le faisan doré″, Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, 1863; le quatuor ″des évangélistes″, Jean-Baptiste Vuillaume, 1863; face; autre collection

PhotographeFessy, GeorgesDescriptionektachrome, couleur0244644Exemplaires

Localisation Cote Documentation du Musée 23098

The Bass in this picture looks 100% English with an English Scroll. What do they say it is? If it's connected to Vuillaume I can tell you that his good friend was JF Lott Jnr who only made one Bass for a quartet according to the Withers shop where he worked. That Bass could be a Lott Snr as he made basses for many shops in his time.

[Brian Glassman]

The museum says it's a JB Vuillaume. The Octobass is in the same museum a few feet away.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Brian Glassman

The museum says it's a JB Vuillaume. The Octobass is in the same museum a few feet away.

Which bass? The one with the red varnish and painted back 3-string or the golden varnish English looking bass above? I didn't see the English Bass on that website, only here.

[Ken Smith]

From the Back it looks 110% English to me.

My Theory? Well since it is believed for the most part that Vuillaume farmed out the Bass work and the fact that JF Lott Jnr. was his good friend I would say that this one was made in London and possibly by Lott Jnr or Snr. If 1860, Jnr. If 1850, either as the father died in 1853, Jnr. in 1871. Lott Snr. was famed for his DB's even in his own time in London.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan

About ten years ago a musician told me that Vuillaume graduated the tops of his basses to 6mm all over. Can anyone confirm this?

I don't know if Vuillaume did this but I do know that Panormo did. The one I have here supposedly a Panormo 'School' Bass is 6-6.5mm thick all across the Top.

Panormo did work in France as well but that was before Vuillaume was born. If this is true about the 6mm Top thickness then perhaps he just copied Panormo.

[Jason Sypher]

Charlie Haden has a confirmed Vuillaume right? Incredible that I can't find any photos of it on the web. Bass Player magazine did an article on Charlie about 15 years ago and had a nice photo of the bass on it's side.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

Charlie Haden has a confirmed Vuillaume right? Incredible that I can't find any photos of it on the web. Bass Player magazine did an article on Charlie about 15 years ago and had a nice photo of the bass on it's side.

I don't know all of who made what for Vuillaume but he employed many makers for Violins, Cellos, Basses and Bows as well. With his business and traveling I doubt that he made much of anything all by himself.

How do you confirm who made a bass if there were reportedly 3, 4, or 5 different makers that over time made these for him? If my Mougenot didn't have a label inside it would be attributed to Vuillaume as well. It has the same FFs as found on other Basses with his mark. Mougenot worked for and took over the shop of his brother Nicholas F. Vuillaume who reportedly made basses for JB when he worked with him before moving to Brussels.

So, is the Haden Bass a Vuillaume 'ordered' 'made' 'shop' 'contracted' bass or a bass made totally by the hand of JB? I have no idea. Also, at one time in France the 'Guilds' were in power in the violin field so Varnish, Scrolls and violin making were done by separate certified craftspeople.

[Jason Sypher]

Well then why call anything by it's name? There is really no way to know if any bass was made by the name on the label, right?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

Well then why call anything by it's name? There is really no way to know if any bass was made by the name on the label, right?

You mentioned a 'confirmed' Vuillaume. It was the 'confirmed' part I was referring to as with this maker, the Basses are more than likely from others.

He had a fairly large shop and output. I am sure his model, quality and varnish was closely followed under his or someones watchful eye but I doubt he made all the instruments bearing his name.

Some makers worked alone. Vuillaume was far from that. Some had an assistant or two, three or more. Who knows? I was just again responding to the 'confirmed' mention.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

Well then why call anything by it's name? There is really no way to know if any bass was made by the name on the label, right?

Right. It's been written, referring to the violin trade, that 90% of labels are fake. Some experts, however, can tune in to a particular maker's handwork, style, model, f-hole, etc., and provide an appraisal that is above reproach. Then again, certain violins known as Strads for the last century or so, have recently been "proven" to be English, from a Century later.

There is a big difference between "made by", "from the shop of", "school of", and "in the style of". Unfortunately, all this vagueness makes buying an expensive instrument a bit un-nerving, which is why one should always seek out multiple opinions from practitioners one can trust. As far as "Vuillaume" basses go, like Ken said above, I would put them in the category of "from the shop of".

[Benjamin Berlioz]

hello,this picture to "médiatheque cité de la musique" is a "copie Stradivairus" from JB Vuillaume...elle appartenais au bassiste Anglais Edward J. Merritt,le fond de la caisse Ã* été agrandi par Gand et Bernardel ,j'ai moi meme une Vuillaume dont voici des photos

[Anselm Hauke]

bonsoir benjamin

tres belle contrebasse!
do you have some more infos about it?

[Benjamin Berlioz]

Guten Tag Anselme
désolé de vous ecrire en français ... cette contrebasse viens de l, atelier de JB Vuillaume Entre 1830 et 1840 d'apres le luthier français JF Schmitt. je n'ai pas plus d'info, la contrebasse appartenais au bassiste Canadien J Quarrington