Playing from the 'Gut'...

[Ken Smith]

I am starting this Thread about Gut Strings but have posted it in both the general Strings and Basses sections because the discussions might and can go either way.

For Strings, we have discussed Guts for both Classical Bowing and for Jazz Pizz as seen in the Links shown. The Pizz Thread was started by Carlos Henriquez and the Bowing Thread was started by yours truly!

Well, as with many of the Basses I have owned past and present I usually prefer the Bass be able to do both with the same set-up. Having good Basses and more then one combined allows me to do this but things don't always work out. Just as I get the Bass just how I like it and ready for a Concert I find out I need a C-Extension for the Gig and have to switch Basses. Last week I was all ready to play my Pollmann and at the rehearsal I see that one of the pieces could only be played comfortably on a 5-String or, Transposed up by jumping all over the Bass. The Piece runs from the Low C thru the 3rd/4th or so positions on the G string so it would really sound best playing all the moving lines as written. Moving on, without a good C-Extension Gut string available I will still have to keep at least 2 Basses 'fully loaded' if one of them are to be strung with Guts.

I have a new set of Guts coming in soon and I was torn between the idea of taking a Bass that still needs Bridge and Nut/Fingerboard work/replacement in the near future OR take a bass that is already done-up and just convert it for Gut by widening the string slots at both the Bridge and the Nut.

Being partially in the business of selling some of the Basses I own (most of them actually) I also have to consider the fact that a Bass probably wont sell too easily these days if strung up with Guts. Also, if the Gut strung Bass is chosen for sale and the Nut and Bridge are newish, I will probably at the least have to re-work them both for Steels if not replace them depending. That in itself is another topic but can be discussed. I will only go further on it if asked.

So, the Basses I had considered that are actually in my rack currently include the Batchelder, the Sirleto, the Pollmann Busseto and the new Lott model English Bass I just bought.

If I'm thinking out loud here too much, just say so. Not that it will do you any good .. but hey, speak up if you got it in ya..

Here were my thoughts on the choice I had to make. Also, this might help any one of you down the road or possibly strike an old 'nerve' if you've been thru this already.

1) The Batchelder was just fully set-up not long ago. Any changes to it might adversely affect a potential sale. Players usually love it the way I have it set-up which has been with any variety of strings its had from Jazz to Orchestra types. I did have one buyer try it with Guts but he went for a much larger Bass in the end.

2) The Sirleto is one that still has its original Bridge but it was cut down so low in the past I had to shim the feet just to use it so no major loss there if I re-cut it. The Fingerboard however is fine and healthy so altering the Nut could be a loss if converting back was needed for a sale.

3) The Pollmann has a complete new Set-up from Arnold which not only includes the Fingerboard, Nut, Bridge Tailpiece and Tailwire but also a new and longer Neck grafted in which makes it a perfect 41.5" string length, up an inch from the stock set-up from Pollmann. Altering this Bass would be as explained earlier, a costly set-up reversal if sold for steel string playing.

4) The Lott model English Bass I just got in plays well as-is but for optimum use, it needs a Fingerboard, Nut and Bridge. This is a Bass I would personally use for Orchestra if all my oldies were suddenly sold. I would just need a C-Extension added and I would have a new personal Bass. The reality is that I currently have 3 GREAT Orchestra Basses and all have C-Extensions. I only need one of them to get by so it would be a fantastic week if all of them sold suddenly.

At first I was thinking of using this Lott model as my new 'Gut Bass' because cutting up the Slots will be of no major loss being that it could use a new and better set-up anyway. Don't get me wrong here. The Bass plays just fine as it is but if I were to use this Bass regularly for Orchestra, I would need all the set-up done to be fully satisfied. The C-Extension would be icing on the cake unless all my other C's were suddenly sold.

My 5th choice actually is my 4/4 Mystery Bass that is nearing the end of its 4+ year re-birth restoration. The main problems with that is the size. It's too big to take out for the average Jazz duo or trio gig and is not what I would call in the least a 'solo' Bass for Jazz gigs. Plus, it's not actually done yet so time is against considering it as well.

Between the 4 Basses mentioned above in my rack and up for sale, I have to decide which one I will pull out and make into my Gut model Bass for both Orchestra (when the C-Ext. isn't needed) and Jazz gigs. All 4 Basses play well. The Batchelder I used for a few years exclusively before buying my first 'real' expensive Bass but I've had my thrills with it musically already. The Sirleto is also a very nice Bass but it doesn't speak to me as much personally as it has to a few buyers that have played it. The same goes with the Batchelder. Both of these are better left as-is because the response has been good and I expect them to find new homes sooner than later so best leave well enough alone.

This leaves the Pollmann and the new English Lott model. The Lott is the best candidate set-up wise as far as any future loss being that it hasn't been all done up yet. The only problem I have is that it was made as an Orchestra Bass just like the actual Lott it was copied from for its former owner and owner of the Lott that he played in one of the major London Orchestras. It is no Jazz solo Bass by any means as far as its intended design and use. It plays so smooth and sounds quite deep with spread and penetrating power just like the original Lott and it was made with old wood besides. Kind of a waste I would say to limit it to a 4-string Gut strung Bass. The winner I think by default is the Pollmann. It's deep, has power, it Bows and Pizz's well and has very friendly shoulders for Solo playing. That is the plus side from the playing stand point. From the Sale point of view, the fancy Carvings on the Busetto seem to scare some people. At rehearsal earlier this week, a Cellist turned around while I was warming up, looked at the Bass and said "WHAT is THAT?". I explained it briefly. The Bass is beautiful but in no subtle way. She is LOUD and clear in her beauty and is not to be mistaken in any way for a 'plain Jane' German Bass.

So, I figured that if I widen all the Slots on the Pollmann and just keep it that way? Then I will have a Bass with Guts that will be around for awhile. Also, while I'm at it, why not just put back the original lighter Pollmann Maple Tailpiece. The only heavy part about that Bass is the Ebony Tailpiece. The Bass itself is the lightest in weight of the 4 mentioned above so transporting it easier as well. After all, I really didn't buy the Pollmann to sell it the next day. I thought it was beautiful and sounded good as well. Might as well set a place for her at the table.. no?

[Ken Smith]

Got past the first gig tonight. Just a short 1-set, 1-hour gig with a Trio and singer. I put the original Maple TP back on the Bass with the Guts and did the job without an Amp. They all said it sounded fine. I could hear every note I played. That's not necessarily a good thing..lol

I have another Gig Sunday but a Duo with just Pno/Bs. Same Bass and no-amp as well.

This is kind of fun. On the way home I was thinking of some of the players that I liked most in my early days which included LaFaro and Chambers. Both Gut players. Maybe I have a new 'Jazz Bass' to hold on to..

[Richard Prowse]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Got past the first gig tonight. Just a short 1-set, 1-hour gig with a Trio and singer. I put the original Maple TP back on the Bass with the Guts and did the job without an Amp. They all said it sounded fine. I could hear every note I played. That's not necessarily a good thing..lol

I have another Gig Sunday but a Duo with just Pno/Bs. Same Bass and no-amp as well.

This is kind of fun. On the way home I was thinking of some of the players that I liked most in my early days which included LaFaro and Chambers. Both Gut players. Maybe I have a new 'Jazz Bass' to hold on to..

Ken ,my friend, I really enjoyed reading these posts. Good to see you back at the jazz!

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Richard Prowse

Ken ,my friend, I really enjoyed reading these posts. Good to see you back at the jazz!

Well, I never really left it but most of my playing is Orchestra these days. It's just that this time around I am using Gut strings. I don't have this Bridge fitted for my pick-up so for the amplified Gigs I still use one of my other Basses (Bohemian usually or Tyrolean) with steels if I need an amp. For Orchestra, the modern steel strings are far superior for response for one and secondly, I wont be putting Guts on any of my Orchestra Basses.

For now when the Gig itself allows, I will play the Pollmann acoustically with the Guts like back in the old days. It kinda makes the Gig a bit more interesting this way.

[Craig Regan]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Got past the first gig tonight. Just a short 1-set, 1-hour gig with a Trio and singer. I put the original Maple TP back on the Bass with the Guts and did the job without an Amp. They all said it sounded fine. I could hear every note I played. That's not necessarily a good thing..lol

I have another Gig Sunday but a Duo with just Pno/Bs. Same Bass and no-amp as well.

It it possible for Mike to shoot a video of the gig and post a song on you tube? It would be fun to check out.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Craig Regan

It it possible for Mike to shoot a video of the gig and post a song on you tube? It would be fun to check out.

He is invited to almost every Gig I do. He's 17 going on 18. You think he wants to hang with Dad?.. Better if you come and shoot the Vid..

[Richard Prowse]

I've done quite a few acoustic gigs lately - I know what you mean about playing without an amp, though my bass is nowhere near the Pollmann's league. I've just put my Weichs back on and am enjoying the growl, but think I need a heavier string. Gut? Probably not. How do they bow? Are they a loud string?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Richard Prowse

I've done quite a few acoustic gigs lately - I know what you mean about playing without an amp, though my bass is nowhere near the Pollmann's league. I've just put my Weichs back on and am enjoying the growl, but think I need a heavier string. Gut? Probably not. How do they bow? Are they a loud string?

I have owned personally 3 Pollmanns and played many many more. This is the loudest Pollmann I have ever played. I did one acoustic Gig a few months ago but it had all Flexocor 92s on it. It cut thru the trio easily. The Guts however seem even louder than the Flexs did.

Bowing, stick with an Orchestra String. The Guts with a Bow for me are more of a 'memory lane' kinda thing having played them in High School Orchestra and Jazz Band. I might take it out on occasion for kicks but for the money, I'm gonna stick with the Flexocor kind for the most part or some other good bowing steel string. My 5er has Obligatos and until they die, I will use them on that Bass. I have Weichs on my Bohemian Bass that I use for Amp'd gigs but that's only because they came on another Bass that needed something darker and more Bowable so I switched things around. Why waste a usable set of strings? For the most part, I am not much of a fan for any Spiro type string for Bowing.

[Richard Prowse]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

For the most part, I am not much of a fan for any Spiro type string for Bowing.

I've bowed Weichs for years. After the Bel Cantos, they're definitely not as good, but there's not that much in it. I'll have to live with it while I'm doing jazz gigs and have just the one bass.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Richard Prowse

I've bowed Weichs for years. After the Bel Cantos, they're definitely not as good, but there's not that much in it. I'll have to live with it while I'm doing jazz gigs and have just the one bass.

If you have to do jazz gigs then you need a string that works for both. Most of the harsh bowing sounds you hear by the bass smooth out over a distance. If the Bass is good enough, it will work fairly well with whatever works for either. Flexocors bow well but can pizz ok as well if the bass has enough sustain and tension. Spiro reds or weichs can bow well on some basses and sound fairly good if the bass is dark and smooth sounding. I used mainly 'Reds on my Italian Bass in NYC for the 15 years I used that Bass. Mostly I did Pizz work but Bowed it as well in Orchestra Shows and Recordings. It was my main string then. Only since I went back to playing again and mostly Orchestra have I switched to the Flexocors which are different than was was being made back then.

Look at the UTube clips with Paul Chambers playing with Coltrain and Wynton Kelly. He bows some amazing solos. He has some GREAT left hand technique, Great.. His Bow chops on Gut strings are NY Philharmonic level..

[Richard Prowse]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

If you have to do jazz gigs then you need a string that works for both. Most of the harsh bowing sounds you hear by the bass smooth out over a distance. If the Bass is good enough, it will work fairly well with whatever works for either. Flexocors bow well but can pizz ok as well if the bass has enough sustain and tension. Spiro reds or weichs can bow well on some basses and sound fairly good if the bass is dark and smooth sounding. I used mainly 'Reds on my Italian Bass in NYC for the 15 years I used that Bass. Mostly I did Pizz work but Bowed it as well in Orchestra Shows and Recordings. It was my main string then. Only since I went back to playing again and mostly Orchestra have I switched to the Flexocors which are different than was was being made back then.

Look at the UTube clips with Paul Chambers playing with Coltrain and Wynton Kelly. He bows some amazing solos. He has some GREAT left hand technique, Great.. His Bow chops on Gut strings are NY Philharmonic level..

Yes Ken, good advice. I loved the clips and will watch them regularly.
Ciao amico.

[Adrian Juras]

What gut strings are you using Ken? I have experimented with Chorda in the past, and the while I LOVE the tone of the E, A, and the G, the D was really flabby sounding. I really don't think you can ever get close to the tone of PC, Pettiford, Stewart, etc, with steel. There is just something about the fundamental with gut...

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Adrian Juras

What gut strings are you using Ken? I have experimented with Chorda in the past, and the while I LOVE the tone of the E, A, and the G, the D was really flabby sounding. I really don't think you can ever get close to the tone of PC, Pettiford, Stewart, etc, with steel. There is just something about the fundamental with gut...

I am using the Custom Chordas 'Carlos set'.

[Adrian Juras]

Nice! I'll have to look into a set. Maybe when I find a good bass to put them on...

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Adrian Juras

Nice! I'll have to look into a set. Maybe when I find a good bass to put them on...

I found this in your profile;

Currently in the market for an older 5/8ths or small 3/4 Tyrolean or German bass.

Will something like this work for you?

This is an affordable old Bohemian Bass and plays almost too easy..

[Ken Smith]

The Guts are now off the Pollmann and the test has been completed. I only have about 10-12 hours of playing that I can recall but with fiddling with the bass in the office from time to time I am sure it's a bit longer than that.

Conclusion:
Thank god they invented steel strings..lol

I mean, the Guts are nice and organic but I would have to be in the audience to appreciate them if at all. Under the ear it's a struggle, at least for me.

Of the 3 sets I tested in the last 2-3 years (Chordas, Carlos Chordas and La Bellas) I think I liked the La Bella strings as much as the Carlos set for the brief time I tried each of them. The regular Chorda set was just too thick for my fingers but sounded equally good if not better. Playability is equally important to me in this regard.

Since these are still in good condition and totally re-usable I think passing them along to a deserving player that either uses Guts or could make good use of them is the best option.

So, I can ship them within the 48 states in USA but for my time and trouble I ask two things. One, offer me a usable old set of something that might interest me in exchange (no money) and two, put up a review of how they worked for you after they settle in to be fair to the nice people at Pirastro that allowed me to test them out and share some opinions here. Ok?

Email me directly at support@kensmithbasses.com and leave it sorta private as far as who gets them. Thx..

[Abe Gumroyan]

Ken,

Steven Tramontozzi, assistant principal of the San Francisco Symphony, uses Pirastro Eudoxas on his Vincenzo Panormo. That bass sounds AMAZING with these strings, easy to bow and volume that kills. Then again it is a Vincenzo

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Abe Gumroyan

Ken,

Steven Tramontozzi, assistant principal of the San Francisco Symphony, uses Pirastro Eudoxas on his Vincenzo Panormo. That bass sounds AMAZING with these strings, easy to bow and volume that kills. Then again it is a Vincenzo

Eudoxas are not regular Gut! They are flatwound silver over gut core. And second, what does that have to do with this thread?

I have used some Eudoxa gut cores on the bottom with Oliv on top but once again, this thread was about the actual traditional gut, not gut core, sorry.

Oh, oh.. Are you offering me a set of Eudoxas in exchange for the Chordas? Maybe that's what you were getting to, right??