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  #21  
Old 10-15-2009, 12:40 AM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Martin View Post
Actually, I'm trying them now (and have been doing a variant of them for some months). Based on today's practice, it IS excellent advice, and I hope to do more with it. I'll be ordering the new strings tomorrow, and ideally, I'll be able to hear what I'm trying to do more successfully.
Dave, I was just teasing about the strings. I've tried E. Joel's exercises too.
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  #22  
Old 10-15-2009, 08:28 AM
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Brian Gencarelli Brian Gencarelli is offline
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Originally Posted by Joel Larsson View Post
A key, as Brian said, is to learn EXACTLY how an interval should sound. Playing with a droning note is nice because you learn where to 'place' your note, but what's probably even more important - as it is what's required of us - is to have a REALLY good idea of what a tempered scale or a perfectly pitched single interval should sound like, and here you may not have any help by that drone, as it might lead you into playing relatively in tune. Which we also have to be able to do. But there is a limit to the practical use of this kind of intonation.
I understand what you are saying Joel, but you must be able to play a half step or whole step in tune to be able to play correctly with the drone. What is understood, in my head, is that you are referencing the the tempered scale with the drone in place. Relatively in tune is what we are required to do. If you want to be "exactly" in tune then you need to practice with a chromatic tuner.

I am agreeing with you, but I think a little is lost in typing rather than talking.
BG
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  #23  
Old 10-15-2009, 02:05 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Gencarelli View Post
I understand what you are saying Joel, but you must be able to play a half step or whole step in tune to be able to play correctly with the drone. What is understood, in my head, is that you are referencing the the tempered scale with the drone in place. Relatively in tune is what we are required to do. If you want to be "exactly" in tune then you need to practice with a chromatic tuner.

I am agreeing with you, but I think a little is lost in typing rather than talking.
BG
Brian, can you give us an example of using this drone? Am I right in assuming that you might play open D, then say the Eb on the G string, then the E - and continue to work up through the intervals?
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  #24  
Old 10-15-2009, 02:26 PM
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Default practicing with a drone

i downloaded all the chromatic shrutis here: http://www.karnatik.com/shrutibox.shtml
and use them sometimes for practicing.

edit: practicing as described above by richard + playing scales, improvising
edit2: improvising with that shruti always makes me feel like charlie haden playing the song "malkauns" on the fantastic (one of my favorites) record "brown rice" by don cherry )
edit3: please everybody buy that record
listen here: http://www.amazon.de/Brown-Rice-Don-.../dp/B0000253J0

Last edited by Anselm Hauke; 10-15-2009 at 03:02 PM.
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  #25  
Old 10-15-2009, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Prowse View Post
Brian, can you give us an example of using this drone? Am I right in assuming that you might play open D, then say the Eb on the G string, then the E - and continue to work up through the intervals?
If you can record some drones you can play over them as you work on scales. You can play one, two, or three octaave scales over the drone. Major, minor, modal- it doesn't matter. So you drone a D and then play the d minor scale. You can work certain intervals or areas of the bass that are problematic, such as the "transition position".

I find this approach very helpful. If you have any more questions let me know.
Brian
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  #26  
Old 10-16-2009, 03:19 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Call me Ron the silly badger if you like but, couldn't one just check one's scales by playing open notes and harmonics? For example:
C D (open D) E F G (open G) A B C D (harmonic D) etc... bearing in mind that harmonics up the series won't be in tempered tuning. You could even use open strings to check a Db scale - using weirder intervals. Any thoughts?
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  #27  
Old 10-17-2009, 09:50 AM
Joel Larsson Joel Larsson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Gencarelli View Post
I am agreeing with you, but I think a little is lost in typing rather than talking.
BG
Yes, well, what I tried to say was that if you play with a drone, you are likely to play what sounds best, i.e. a scale that's relatively in tune. But you must also be able to play in tune in all keys after you stop playing with the drone. You run the risk - and that was/is still my case - of never establishing an intonation that always works, or can work as a reference point to the relatively in tune notes. If you can play a chromatically in tune scale, you can relate all other notes to the ones perfectly in pitch; you must know where an absolute F# is in order to know where to play a low one, or in the end you may not know whether the note you are playing is high, low, or in tune, and that will most likely afftect the next notes as well, as it is easy to deviate from the 'truth' or absolute pitch of the instrument; everything relative needs something absolute in relation to which it is relative, or it could technically speaking not exist. Sorry for getting into philosophy here.
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  #28  
Old 10-17-2009, 10:13 AM
Joel Larsson Joel Larsson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Prowse View Post
Call me Ron the silly badger if you like but, couldn't one just check one's scales by playing open notes and harmonics? For example:
C D (open D) E F G (open G) A B C D (harmonic D) etc... bearing in mind that harmonics up the series won't be in tempered tuning. You could even use open strings to check a Db scale - using weirder intervals. Any thoughts?
I think that the harmonics you should above all avoid are the 5ths and 3rds, as both are low. Octave harmonics are supposed to be rather well in tune, aren't they? Well, anyway, on the G string, you can check almsost every note in the major scale against a secure interval; A with the D or A string, B with the E string, C against open G or double octave harmonic, D against open D, E against A string, and if you're in desperate need of an idea of where your F# is at, check it against open D. But - and here I return to what the purpose is of the exercise I mentioned - you cannot allow yourself to rely on checking against other strings, because that's something you simply won't be able to do when you're fighting in the fields. It can and should be used to see if you have drifted off pitch, but it should always be conscious, not habitual.

I've also been known to check say a Db major scale against some strange intervals - Db against A, F against D, Gb against D, Ab against E and so on. But these are all insecure and most relative intervals - a G# against an E should be a whole lot lower than the Ab against its base Db. Or you could try to establish the sound of an Ab against open D. But you still have to be able to play the scale in tune, without stopping, which you simply won't do if you haven't worked out your hand shape properly, and taken into account that you have to "fight gravity" on the way down. In many cases, it's not the shiftings themselves that seem to be the big issue, but the components therein. Or again, if you have a too big or too small hand, even a perfect shift will make you end up in the wrong place. Hope that helps.
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  #29  
Old 10-18-2009, 10:46 AM
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Brian Gencarelli Brian Gencarelli is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Larsson View Post
Yes, well, what I tried to say was that if you play with a drone, you are likely to play what sounds best, i.e. a scale that's relatively in tune. But you must also be able to play in tune in all keys after you stop playing with the drone. You run the risk - and that was/is still my case - of never establishing an intonation that always works, or can work as a reference point to the relatively in tune notes. If you can play a chromatically in tune scale, you can relate all other notes to the ones perfectly in pitch; you must know where an absolute F# is in order to know where to play a low one, or in the end you may not know whether the note you are playing is high, low, or in tune, and that will most likely afftect the next notes as well, as it is easy to deviate from the 'truth' or absolute pitch of the instrument; everything relative needs something absolute in relation to which it is relative, or it could technically speaking not exist. Sorry for getting into philosophy here.
OK, so what you are saying is that the 3rd and 6th scale degrees are the ones to worry about? Unison is perfect, 4th is perfect, 5th is perfect, octave is perfect. Second is one whole step away from the drone, and the seventh is one half step below the drone. The only notes that have a chance to be "imperfect" with the drone are the 3rd and 6th. These are notes which will vary depending on the ensemble you are playing with.

Audiation- or internalizing the pitch, is the key to this. You must always hear the drone! Even when it is no longer playing. Also, I am advocating playing all the scales with it. Chromatic included. I have my students in the Rollez three octave scale study book, which each study concludes in a three octave chromatic scale. The drone works for these too.

The biggest point I am trying to make is: If you can't hear it, you can't play it! Period. I feel that having students work with a drone forces them to play the "right" notes. I have thousands of hours of real time experience with this concept. It works. You can use your open strings, but that limits which scales you can play with the drone and which fingerings you can use. You need an external drone such as this:http://www.navarrorivermusic.com/cello_drones.php

You can make your own with a keyboard, or even turn on a chromatic tuner to listen to.

I guarantee this will improve your intonation, unless you are a top professional player that has perfect pitch. It improved mine. Seven of the ten bass players in our senior region orchestra are my students this year- it works for them. Give it two weeks. If you don't feel it has helped your intonation I will give you your money back!

BTW, Joel- Pitch is not absolute... because no one is perfect. We are all relatively in tune or out of tune. Absolute pitch is a concept, not reality.

Brian
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  #30  
Old 10-18-2009, 01:41 PM
Joel Larsson Joel Larsson is offline
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Well, I do not question the validity of the drone, only its monopoly.

Yes, in retrospect, I used the wrong words for the wrong things... a perfectly in tune scale is of course one that is properly intonated, and not tempered at all. Only that the Pythagorean comma very successfully makes perfect impossible... With 'absolute pitch' I refer to in tune with the tuner, i.e. tempered, piano tuning.

I can only further stress your point that 'if you can't hear it, you can't play it.' That was precisely my case. I couldn't hear a tempered 2nd, so I couldn't play a tempered 2nd when required of me. Seconds and sevenths - major or minor - also happens to be those which are easiest to put in the wrong place, because they could be intonated in a huge variety of ways, or so it seems to me. Low major 7th if in a downwards movement, high it it leads to the next note, etc. Now discovering that I was unable even to play an in tune open D to E was alarming, because as a bass player, your most important role is to provide the fundamental note (and I didn't even have the "bread and butter area" at all as clear as I thought I had. ). For instance, if you have played an A on the G string and are about to play a C#, you may assume that the C# is the 3rd, and so you play a perfect 3rd. If it turned out to be a new base note, you will be almost 4hz or something too low, because base notes are almost always to be played in absolute pitch. (And this in turn could mean that the poor guys playing the 3rd in case it's a major chord have to play their note 8hz lower than usual in order to get it in place! ) This could be a possible problem, since you may not ever have played an 'absolute' A-C# shift if you only play with the drone. Typically, the orchestra won't like you if you play "your own" intervals, neither will the rest of the section. The fixing of hand shapes and becoming able to play absolutely in tune serves to get your left hand in place no matter what. Then, if you know that a note has to be played low in order to sound good, you just play it lower than usual, which - at least in my limited experience - has just proven itself to be much better for my general intonation. Also, it might minimize any bad habits of sliding into place.

That said, if you have the absolute pitch of the instrument perfectly clear and could even play any note in tune without any reference points, you may still not be able to play a perfect 3rd, because you haven't played with a drone or otherwise learned how to intonate according to what's around, or at all learned the basics of intonation. We need drones. We don't want to play with frets!
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  #31  
Old 10-18-2009, 01:47 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Well Brian and E. Joel have really knocked that nail on the head.
It's probably time to talk about tone.
Here's a starting point...
A good tone, apart from needing a good bow, rosin, bass and strings, might need these ingredients:
a firm left hand with maybe a good vibrato, good bow placement and speed and a smooth transition between each note.
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  #32  
Old 10-18-2009, 02:06 PM
Joel Larsson Joel Larsson is offline
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Make that placement, speed and weight/pressure, and you're there.

As for placement, somebody told me the other day that "most of the time, you seem to stay in the 'comfort zone' closer to the fingerboard, and then you go towards the bridge only when necessary. You should try to usually stay closer to the bridge, and go closer to the fingerboard only when necessary." Good point.
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  #33  
Old 10-21-2009, 08:54 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Larsson View Post
Make that placement, speed and weight/pressure, and you're there.

As for placement, somebody told me the other day that "most of the time, you seem to stay in the 'comfort zone' closer to the fingerboard, and then you go towards the bridge only when necessary. You should try to usually stay closer to the bridge, and go closer to the fingerboard only when necessary." Good point.
Another approach is to move the bow in proportion to the length of string being used.
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