Advice on bridge

[Yeong Cham]

Hello all,

I have two basses, both made in Reghin, Romania. They are of the same size and have the same kind of labels. Not too much information on these basses on the net (probably they are not historically significant?), but believed to have been made in a state owned factory back in the late 70’s. I would like to get them properly set up (for mostly arco playing) and the first thing is to get the bridges replaced (unless the luthier thinks that the fingerboard needs to be dressed first). I’m hoping to get some advice here, to be more informed before I take one of them to the shop, just so that I will not make unreasonable requests and offend people at the shop.

All things being equal, how much wood between the crown and the heart is ideal? I’m asking because the bridge on my bass is very short. Please see the attaches image. The string height (in mm) at the end of the bridge for: E=10, A=10.5, D=9.5 and G=8.5.

I am going to take the bass to the local luthier. I know that they cut their own bridges but if they follow the “industrial standard” (Despiau, Aubert) it would mean I’m gonna end up with a bridge looking just like my existing one and I really don’t like the look of it. Mind you the feet of the existing bridge are only about 0.5mm thick. I think the feet should be thicker than that, which means I will lose even more wood between the crown and the heart. Only way I can think of getting more wood between crown and heart without increasing string height is to shorten the legs. Does the length of the legs of the bridge have a direct/huge effect on sound?

I’ve also attached an image showing the overstand at 24.5mm. I don’t think that this is particularly low, and the arch of the table doesn’t seem particularly high. Maybe it’s the angle of the neck/heel?

Thanks in advance for your input.

Cham.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Yeong Cham

Hello all,

I have two basses, both made in Reghin, Romania. They are of the same size and have the same kind of labels. Not too much information on these basses on the net (probably they are not historically significant?), but believed to have been made in a state owned factory back in the late 70’s. I would like to get them properly set up (for mostly arco playing) and the first thing is to get the bridges replaced (unless the luthier thinks that the fingerboard needs to be dressed first). I’m hoping to get some advice here, to be more informed before I take one of them to the shop, just so that I will not make unreasonable requests and offend people at the shop.

All things being equal, how much wood between the crown and the heart is ideal? I’m asking because the bridge on my bass is very short. Please see the attaches image. The string height (in mm) at the end of the bridge for: E=10, A=10.5, D=9.5 and G=8.5.

I am going to take the bass to the local luthier. I know that they cut their own bridges but if they follow the “industrial standard” (Despiau, Aubert) it would mean I’m gonna end up with a bridge looking just like my existing one and I really don’t like the look of it. Mind you the feet of the existing bridge are only about 0.5mm thick. I think the feet should be thicker than that, which means I will lose even more wood between the crown and the heart. Only way I can think of getting more wood between crown and heart without increasing string height is to shorten the legs. Does the length of the legs of the bridge have a direct/huge effect on sound?

I’ve also attached an image showing the overstand at 24.5mm. I don’t think that this is particularly low, and the arch of the table doesn’t seem particularly high. Maybe it’s the angle of the neck/heel?

Thanks in advance for your input.

Cham.

Wow, such a low Bridge with such high string height. I don't know if these are carved or laminated basses but being generic Romanian Factory basses, they need work that could cost more than the value of the Bass.

The Overstand at 24.5mm is very low. I think that 35mm is much better and almost a minimum. The Bridge should be about 6.5" or 165mm high in the middle with the Strings over the fingerboard at the end from about 5mm/G to 9mm/E or so. I play lower even.. To go heigher, raise the bridge adjusters that you should have as well.

To get this Bridge height with lower string height which will allow better Bow clearance at the C bouts as well as easier upper register fingering, you need a combination of good overstand (35-40mm) and proper Neck pitch in the Block. In your case, moving the neck out will only increace the Bridge by about the amount moved unless the Pitch angle is increased as well. You need a lot more angle to go from about 5"/128mm to 6.5"/165mm.

This is what I consider a normal set-up to play the bass in todays world. Anything less is a struggle. This Bass in my opinion was set-up wrong when it was made in the factory. It might be cheaper to get another bass and sell or trade this one in.

[Yeong Cham]

Hi Ken,

These basses have carved tables, solid flatbacks and rips.

As I am a very new student of the instrument, I cannot justify (nor can I afford to) paying thousands of pounds for a bass. I have spoken to a few bassists here and the consensus is that below a grand will only get me a laminate. I pay much less than a grand for the pair. Yes, I do see now that they will need some work done to them but I feel that for the same money I could do a lot worse, i.e., Made in China laminates with “ebonized” fingerboard and tail piece. I hired one such bass during my first five weeks. Calling them “not nice” is an understatement...

I will have to get a quote from the luthier for moving the neck out and increasing the pitch angle. I have a feeling that it’s going be out of my budget so I might just have to live with it for now and settle with just a new. Besides, I need to get a proper bow as well. Too bad the “Loveri” bow is sold out...

Thanks again for your valuable advice.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Yeong Cham

Hi Ken,

These basses have carved tables, solid flatbacks and rips.

As I am a very new student of the instrument, I cannot justify (nor can I afford to) paying thousands of pounds for a bass. I have spoken to a few bassists here and the consensus is that below a grand will only get me a laminate. I pay much less than a grand for the pair. Yes, I do see now that they will need some work done to them but I feel that for the same money I could do a lot worse, i.e., Made in China laminates with “ebonized” fingerboard and tail piece. I hired one such bass during my first five weeks. Calling them “not nice” is an understatement...

I will have to get a quote from the luthier for moving the neck out and increasing the pitch angle. I have a feeling that it’s going be out of my budget so I might just have to live with it for now and settle with just a new. Besides, I need to get a proper bow as well. Too bad the “Loveri” bow is sold out...

Thanks again for your valuable advice.

Two basses for so cheap? Maybe due to the set-up condition!

The point is to find out what they are worth in the best set-up condition and go from there on how much you would spend to make them right. If you like the bass then make it right. Sell one as-is and fix the one you like most. You only need ONE working bass at this time. Having 2 or 10 bad basses doesn't help your problem. Consolidate and conserve..

[Yeong Cham]

I live in London, and I don't drive, so I take the Underground (Subway). You see where this is going? Initially I thought that I could lug the bass to practice every Saturday on the Tube. It wasn't too difficult with the 1/2 size Chinese that I hired. But with an 3/4 size bass it's a different ball game. It's much bigger and heavier. And on Saturdays the Tube is packed and people don't appreciate me commuting with a double bass. One time a few kids were running down the stairs, took a corner and almost crashed straight into me. If I keep this up someone's gonna break my bass one day and they ain't gonna pay for it, and I'm gonna break my back and I'm gonna have to pay for it. So I either have to get a car, or get a second bass to leave it in the orchestra's instrument room, and one at home for practice. As you can see I chose wood over metal. I went on evilBay and bought another one of the same make.

These basses have not been modified, but more likely to have been set-up or built to less than ideal specs at the factory. I was gonna do exactly what has been suggested - to find out what they are worth in the best set-up condition. My teacher, who plays a very nice dark sounding 5-string English bass (R.Harris - anyone heard of him? I should find out from my teacher, really), thought that I did well on the purchase and was even considering getting one for herself, especially at that sort of price range. Oh, I forgot to mention... the first bass also come will a really good case and a bow that made my teacher's jaw drop (FWIW). But I shall post that in the bow section.

In the mean time I might have to be stuck with the low bridge set-up. I don't get a whole lot of C-bout clearance, but just about. The naive side of me think this will help with my bowing techniques, but we'll see...

Oh, and back to my initial question - how does the physical size of the bridge affects the sound of a double bass (in my case, particularly the length of the legs)? Does thicker bridge produces more/less volume? Darker/brighter tone? Treated vs untreated? etc etc...

I'm not in the position to spend a lot more money on these basses, so I'll do right by them as far as I can stretch. At least I'm (kinda) settled on the strings hunt.

Good luck to me!!

P.S. Just saw an old tape of Lee Ritenour and Larry Carlton Live in Japan with Melvin Davis on bass. Them Ken Smith basses sound absolute amazing!!! \m/ \m/

[Matthew Tucker]

Even though the crown is narrow, and the blank is a cheap one, the bridge looks kinda normal shape to me. You see that "lowbrow" look quite often.

You say the first thing to do is to change the bridges, and yes a nice new bridge blank will certainly look nicer and may sound a bit better, but I suspect that any improvement in sound just due to bridge crown shape, or the amount of wood over the heart, or leg length, may be small compared with the improvement in sound you could probably get just by giving the basses to a good luthier to tweak a little, and putting on some new strings. I suggest asking the luthier what he/she suggests is the best way to spend your budget!

So, are your basses 3/4 size or half size? what's the string length?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Yeong Cham

I live in London, and I don't drive, so I take the Underground (Subway). You see where this is going? Initially I thought that I could lug the bass to practice every Saturday on the Tube. It wasn't too difficult with the 1/2 size Chinese that I hired. But with an 3/4 size bass it's a different ball game. It's much bigger and heavier. And on Saturdays the Tube is packed and people don't appreciate me commuting with a double bass. One time a few kids were running down the stairs, took a corner and almost crashed straight into me. If I keep this up someone's gonna break my bass one day and they ain't gonna pay for it, and I'm gonna break my back and I'm gonna have to pay for it. So I either have to get a car, or get a second bass to leave it in the orchestra's instrument room, and one at home for practice. As you can see I chose wood over metal. I went on evilBay and bought another one of the same make.

These basses have not been modified, but more likely to have been set-up or built to less than ideal specs at the factory. I was gonna do exactly what has been suggested - to find out what they are worth in the best set-up condition. My teacher, who plays a very nice dark sounding 5-string English bass (R.Harris - anyone heard of him? I should find out from my teacher, really), thought that I did well on the purchase and was even considering getting one for herself, especially at that sort of price range. Oh, I forgot to mention... the first bass also come will a really good case and a bow that made my teacher's jaw drop (FWIW). But I shall post that in the bow section.

In the mean time I might have to be stuck with the low bridge set-up. I don't get a whole lot of C-bout clearance, but just about. The naive side of me think this will help with my bowing techniques, but we'll see...

Oh, and back to my initial question - how does the physical size of the bridge affects the sound of a double bass (in my case, particularly the length of the legs)? Does thicker bridge produces more/less volume? Darker/brighter tone? Treated vs untreated? etc etc...

I'm not in the position to spend a lot more money on these basses, so I'll do right by them as far as I can stretch. At least I'm (kinda) settled on the strings hunt.

Good luck to me!!

P.S. Just saw an old tape of Lee Ritenour and Larry Carlton Live in Japan with Melvin Davis on bass. Them Ken Smith basses sound absolute amazing!!! \m/ \m/

On the C bout clearance or any other issue, it will NOT help you play better to struggle. Like running a race with one leg tied. Bass is hard enough to play. Don't make it any harder with a bad set-up. Melvin has been here and played some of my Double Basses as well. One time, we did a little duet here in the office. Him on the 7 and me on the Martini. It was fun..

[Yeong Cham]

You say the first thing to do is to change the bridges, and yes a nice new bridge blank will certainly look nicer and may sound a bit better, but I suspect that any improvement in sound just due to bridge crown shape, or the amount of wood over the heart, or leg length, may be small compared with the improvement in sound you could probably get just by giving the basses to a good luthier to tweak a little, and putting on some new strings. I suggest asking the luthier what he/she suggests is the best way to spend your budget!

So, are your basses 3/4 size or half size? what's the string length?

Thank you for chipping in, Matthew.

The reason behind getting the bridge replaced is due to the way it is current fitted. The bridge is perpendicular to the table on the fingerboard side, instead of the tailpiece side. Please see the attached image.

These basses are ¾ size. String length is 40.5” or 1030mm (middle of bridge between D and A strings to the fingerboard-nut joint). F neck (is this uncommon or just plain “wrong”?). The fingerboard is bevelled under the E string.

Over the past few weeks I have tried new Belcantos, 1 year old Flexorcor Originals (minus the E), few month old Spirocore Weichs (that came with the bass), and newish Evah Pirazzi Mediums. All orchestra sets. I have decided to go with the EP’s after weighing the pros and cons in my situation, playing ability and what not. I’m waiting on a set of EP weichs to decide which will work best for me ultimately and will put the string hunt to rest. I hope that they will arrive before I have to take the bass to the luthier for the proper set up.

A bit of background about me. I was trained in Precision Engineering but now I build architectural models for a living. Not that it means anything in the world of luthiery, but I do have access to a workshop with a LOT of tools and machines (sanders, saws, lathe, CNC routers, laser etc), and I know how to use them, properly. As much as I would like to work on the bass on my own, the workshop is no place for a delicate music instrument, besides, I rather keep these two parts of my life separate for now. More importantly, I would like as least one the basses to be set up by someone who has more knowledge about string instrument than I do. For example, I don’t know for sure now where the ideal position of the tailpiece on this bass should be.

There’s a local timber supplier I get wood from for work and I am sure they can sort me out with some quatersawn maple and I can cut my own bridge blanks. But then again this begs the question of the “quality” of the wood itself. Even if I cut it to the approximate dimension and let it air dry for a while before using it, how dry is dry enough? Do I need to treat it? If yes, with what? Man... maybe I really do need to quit my day job if I want to get into the art of luthiery...

On the C bout clearance or any other issue, it will NOT help you play better to struggle. Like running a race with one leg tied. Bass is hard enough to play. Don't make it any harder with a bad set-up.

Sage advice. Noted and much appreciated.

[Matthew Tucker]

Well, again, that bridge looks kinda familiar. They often come in like that but my instinct tells that unless there's a compelling structural reason to rectify it, just changing out the bridge so the back face is vertical instead of the front face is not necessarily money well spent.

Stabilising that crack before it gets worse, on the other hand ...

I think you need to think of finding a luthier as signing up the last team member in your bass adventure. Its you, your teacher and your luthier. He/she will be able to give you advice that no-one here really can, cos we're not there playing the bass. If you're willing to pay someone for their expertise you may as well listen to what they have to say, even if you think you know better!

Lastly, when you can buy a serviceable bridge blank for between $50 and $90, why bother making your own? The cost is in the time and effort the luthier puts into fitting it to your bass, and you can't do that on a CNC machine ..

[edit: Despiau, Aubert etc also manufacture their blanks in different leg heights, tall/squat, so you can probably get what you're after if your luthier knows what to order. Also you might like to put adjusters in the legs, then you can do pretty much what you like, cut down the legs on a taller blank, if you really want to! And again, IMO changing the bridge wood/shape/height etc may change the sound, but not as much as other adjustments might do. Get the basses set up to play well; fingerboard work, soundpost adjustment, nut slots, cracks glued, general clean-up etc will do wonders!]

[Yeong Cham]

Happy New Year!!

Thank you for your advice. A trip to the luthier has been penciled in and I will try to control myself and spend wisely.

[Martin Sheridan]

A cheap fix is to lossen the top from the neck block and along the ribs all the way down to just past the top corner blocks. Pull the bass neck forward and try to get about 150mm height projected to the bridge, or inside f hold nicks. Reglue it. Put a piece of spruce in the gap betweent the top and the neck.

Bridges are also sold with different width feet to better fit in relation to soundpost and bass bar.

Finally, you might consider a smaller bridge e.g. a one half size.

None of this is what you'd do to a really good bass, but it can make the bass playable for a lot less money.