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Old 01-24-2010, 04:38 PM
Martin Sheridan Martin Sheridan is offline
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Default Attribution

There's been some talk on the forum about attribution such as: made by, from the shop of....the school of etc.
If anyone has an auction catalog please feel free to correct me, but I think the auction houses use the following distinctions:

Made By....meaning they believe there is no doubt of the authenticity. Such as made by Adrea Amati.

Attributed to: Meaning most experts agree that it is made by so and so.

Ascribed to: Meaning their are papers from someone, but the auction house does not agree....Ascribed to Andrea Amati.

Shop of: It was made in so and so's shop but not necessarily by Andrea Amati.

School of: Perhaps someone who learned from someone who learned from the Amati.

Another: Possibly Italian 18th Century, or "Possibly Milanese 18th century etc.

Others?

I have spoken with several violin experts who can write papers that would be accepted by nearly anyone who have told me that when it comes to basses they have no idea.
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Old 01-24-2010, 06:29 PM
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Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
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Cool 'most experts'..

I think that in reality ones who are considered 'experts' by some are disputed by others. I have seen origin opinions and originality write ups with sales that were not only false but were in my opinion (for what ever that's worth) were outright lies. What test and by what body does a person earn the title of 'expert'?

With some makers in basses, the work and modeling is fairly consistent from one to another within a period. On some makers however, they have made very different basses from one to another and are not so easily spotted.

Examples;

Well, Martini made several basses in his early years that look like he was shooting for the exact same thing with only slight variations. His later basses after the 2nd war look different but the Scroll and FF still resemble his earlier work. His earliest known bass was 1919 and the latest I have seen was 1954.

On the more modern front looking ar Arnold's work for example he has made basses 'after' Montagnana and Testore each in 2 sizes that I have seen. Also, he has made 4 other basses of his own Ergo style that really shows his hand. Looking 200 years down the road at his basses with no labels or markings (for discussion here assume the labels are lost or removed), would 'the experts' of the future be able to tell that these 3-5 models were all made by Arnold?

Unless a maker marks his work stamping and signing the wood inside, making positive ID's in the future are nearly impossible, expert or no expert.

The best expert is an actual eye witness! Got one of those for your bass?
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Old 01-25-2010, 10:38 AM
Martin Sheridan Martin Sheridan is offline
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Default experts

Ken,
I agree completely.
I don't think there is a bass expert. Too many basses were made without labels, labels can be falsified or copied, taken out of one bass and put into another etc. Then there is the money motive which has caused many false assertions of authorship.
Finally bass makers can't make the same number of instruments that a violin maker could make in the same amount of time. So we don't get the chance to see very many legitimate examples.
In the Henry Ford Museum in Deerborn, Michigan there are three violins: a Stradivari, a Guarneri and I believe a Gagliano. Until not too long ago it was thought that the Gagliano was a Guarneri. Even having a lot of money is no assurance that you're buying what you think you are getting.
The work of the classical violin makers, especially the top five or ten is well known and I think there are some people who can spot these instruments because they've worked in shops or owned shops where they've seen enough legitmate examples. Yet, as Arnold pointed out recently, some of the 19th and early 20th century English makers, such as the Voller Brothers, were able to pass their instruments off as the real thing.
I have made other instruments besides basses, but many bass makers only make basses because of their love of the instrument, and most of us are bass players. We spend most of our time repairing basses, so few of us are able to make more than one or two basses a year. We might only make 10 to 30 basses in our lifetime. Two hundred years from now some of those instruments will not have survived and the others will be spread around the globe. The chance that a shop will see even one of our basses is remote and authentication will be almost nil.

I just wanted our readers to be aware that the terms used in authentication have a specific meaning; that "ascribed to" for example as a very different meaning that "attributed to".
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Old 01-25-2010, 12:51 PM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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Here's an attribution you hear a lot amongst bassists: "Looks like a picture I saw of a _______".
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Old 01-25-2010, 03:30 PM
Martin Sheridan Martin Sheridan is offline
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Default Frankenstein

I heard another last week that I hadn't heard in sometime. The player said he owned a Frankenstein....the back and sides Italian, the top something else, the neck and scroll from something else.

Also, In line Arnold with what you are saying; most players don't "see" the instrument. When you spend your days and years as we do making and repairing you see the instrument in a much different way, like an artist might look at a face differently and more thoroughly than we do. When I first started looking at violins, for example, they all looked the same to me. Once I started to carve violins I began seeing all of the nuances. A former apprentice of mine who was a fine violist told me after carving her first bridge that she'd been looking at them all of her life and never knew they looked like that.

Last edited by Martin Sheridan; 02-04-2010 at 09:21 PM.
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Old 01-27-2010, 12:57 AM
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Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
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Lightbulb others?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan View Post
There's been some talk on the forum about attribution such as: made by, from the shop of....the school of etc.
If anyone has an auction catalog please feel free to correct me, but I think the auction houses use the following distinctions:

Made By....meaning they believe there is no doubt of the authenticity. Such as made by Adrea Amati.

Attributed to: Meaning most experts agree that it is made by so and so.

Ascribed to: Meaning their are papers from someone, but the auction house does not agree....Ascribed to Andrea Amati.

Shop of: It was made in so and so's shop but not necessarily by Andrea Amati.

School of: Perhaps someone who learned from someone who learned from the Amati.

Another: Possibly Italian 18th Century, or "Possibly Milanese 18th century etc.

Others?

I have spoken with several violin experts who can write papers that would be accepted by nearly anyone who have told me that when it comes to basses they have no idea.
Yes, my Auction glossary has a *few more.. in this order..
Is By
*Probably or Possibly by
Attributed to
Ascribed to

*Firm of
Workshop of
School of
*In the Circle of
*In the style or manner of
*Labeled/Stamped/Branded/Inscribed


(not listed; Another: Possibly Italian 18th Century, or "Possibly Milanese 18th century etc.) This doesn't fit any of the definitions of the ones listed above that I can see. This is slightly more loosely described.

The definitions you shop are not complete or the same as what the Auction book has. Close in some of them but incomplete as far as their descriptions go. This is the 'Red Book' I am referring to, 2006 Edition.
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Old 02-01-2010, 07:16 AM
Joel Larsson Joel Larsson is offline
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A friend of mine has a cello with a probably authentic Gand label. If I understood correctly, in order to sell—or insure—it as a Gand (which would raise the price from the current circa €30k to 100k), he needs somebody to confirm that it really is a Gand, and it turns out that the ones who does that are a small elite circle in Paris, where everybody supposedly has some kind of connection to the 19th century French fims and workshops. These guys will charge you a percentage of the worth they attribute to it—10% or something like that—which means that a letter of certificate will cost €10,000.
Even if this isn't the whole truth, I find it appalling that people can actually charge a percentage of the value. No wonder prices have risen lately!!
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:22 AM
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Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
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Cool Gand values..

All I could look up here for Gand Snr. was one from 1994 for almost $56k U$D. I think you have the correct price. All things being considered within the current condition of the Gand Cello. Here in the States two people/places I know charges 4% of the value, not 10%. If that's the case then have him fly over here and save some money. I think 30-100GBP's seems within the ballpark for a top French Cello.
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:00 PM
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Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
All I could look up here for Gand Snr. was one from 1994 for almost $56k U$D. I think you have the correct price. All things being considered within the current condition of the Gand Cello. Here in the States two people/places I know charges 4% of the value, not 10%. If that's the case then have him fly over here and save some money. I think 30-100GBP's seems within the ballpark for a top French Cello.
I looked it up in my Red Book and found two Cellos sold. This one above mentioned and another for about $10k less in 1989. This is Gand Pere'. Any other Gand sold for much less.
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Old 02-04-2010, 09:25 PM
Martin Sheridan Martin Sheridan is offline
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Default usuary?

There is a built in conflict of interest when firms charge a percentage of the value they write.

And thank you Ken for the additions to the auction house terms. I was working from my very fallible memory.
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Old 02-04-2010, 10:44 PM
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Matthew Tucker Matthew Tucker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan View Post
There is a built in conflict of interest when firms charge a percentage of the value they write.
I think depends a little on the purpose of the valuation. The "valuation" amount could be the insurance value, or the estimated sale value, and those values may not be even close. Often a customer will not necessarily want an appraisal, but merely a "valuation" for a certain sum for insurance purposes.

In fact, it could be argued that there is a credibility issue when firms DON'T charge a percentage of the value they write ... it's easy to add a zero to keep a customer happy.

PS violins still all look the same to me ...
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Old 02-05-2010, 12:57 AM
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Cool valuations..

I feel the best way is like what's done with the Housing market. Compare the most recent sales of a similar bass in YOUR area and adjust up or down for condition or pedigree. On the top class pedigrees it is more of a world market. Generic shop basses rarely get sold far from where they are. The 'area' mention applies mostly to these type of lower cost instruments.

I have seen though many many basses selling for more than I would ever expect them to go for because of what the dealer marketed it as. This happens when German basses are sold as French, English basses are sold as Italian and antiqued Hungarian basses are sold as modern Italians and so on.

In the high end English Market I have seen the highest prices ever ranging from about 90k to 150k asking or actual sale prices and not all were in the best of condition. Most however were the real deal. To die for basses basically. On the Italians, if you can name it and not get 'shot down' professionally, then the prices again have brought in some record numbers.

Valuations are for the most part Insurance Appraisals. Also, you get the bass identified as close as possible. This will help down the road when selling it IF the Papers hold any weight amongst its peers.
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