re-fin advice

[Adrian Levi]

I am once again in need of some advice .

This is a full size French bass of mine with finish stripped off . I got the bass with an orangey ugly re-varnish job and decided to strip it and have it refinished .

Now there is the original color on the headstock and on the heel as in the pic .I have been told that it is definitely a French Polish finish .
I'm interested in any advice on what route to take as far as deciding on finish type etc , i.e. what a pro would choose in these circumstances?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Adrian Levi

I am once again in need of some advice .

This is a full size French bass of mine with finish stripped off . I got the bass with an orangey ugly re-varnish job and decided to strip it and have it refinished .

Now there is the original color on the headstock and on the heel as in the pic .I have been told that it is definitely a French Polish finish .
I'm interested in any advice on what route to take as far as deciding on finish type etc , i.e. what a pro would choose in these circumstances?

French Polish is usually a technique used to smooth out a finish or the varnish, not the actual finish. You can finish wood with just French polish but it wont give you as much protection as Varnish will. By the way, who told you this?

Buy a few finishing books. It will be cheaper than doing things over several times. Your bass will thank you later. Study first, Finish later!

[Adrian Levi]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

French Polish is usually a technique used to smooth out a finish or the varnish, not the actual finish. You can finish wood with just French polish but it wont give you as much protection as Varnish will. By the way, who told you this?

Buy a few finishing books. It will be cheaper than doing things over several times. Your bass will thank you later. Study first, Finish later!

A local luthier claimed that he 'tested' the finish and that it was french polished !!

Anyway I'll definitely study first before touching the bass with a brush /I'm in no hurry .
Out of interest what finish would you use if you had the choice ?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Adrian Levi

A local luthier claimed that he 'tested' the finish and that it was french polished !!

Anyway I'll definitely study first before touching the bass with a brush /I'm in no hurry .
Out of interest what finish would you use if you had the choice ?

First off, I would like to see the bass and make sure it's French as you claim.

Then, Arnold has had many of these thru his shop. If your bass is French, ask him what type of Varnish is usual on them, Spirit or Oil. French polish is usually not considered a finish but has been used including on furniture. He is currently working on my Jacquet and touching it up. He would be able to guide you much better than I can.

[Adrian Levi]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

First off, I would like to see the bass and make sure it's French as you claim.

Then, Arnold has had many of these thru his shop. If your bass is French, ask him what type of Varnish is usual on them, Spirit or Oil. French polish is usually not considered a finish but has been used including on furniture. He is currently working on my Jacquet and touching it up. He would be able to guide you much better than I can.

Ok Ken here are the pics ......

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Adrian, decide whether you want to finish in spirit or oil varnish. Make certain there is not a single open crack or seam on the entire bass! Strip the rest of the bass, because you will never match it. Oil varnish is easier to apply, but is much slower; spirit is more difficult to apply, but is much faster. When applying oil varnish you should wear a respirator. As far as durability, oil varnish is more flexible and chips less. Spirit is easier to build quickly and to touch up. You can't go wrong with the products by Hammerl; over here they are sold by International Violin and Metropolitan Music. Any oil varnish you buy will require some thinning. Hammerl's tints work well, and mix right into the varnish, but plan on 10-20 coats to get to the color you want. Buy the best brushes you can find and take great care of them. As the saying goes, "It takes 10 years to make a good violin-maker, then he spends the rest of his life figuring out how to varnish the damn things". Good luck.

[Adrian Levi]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

Adrian, decide whether you want to finish in spirit or oil varnish. Make certain there is not a single open crack or seam on the entire bass! Strip the rest of the bass, because you will never match it. Oil varnish is easier to apply, but is much slower; spirit is more difficult to apply, but is much faster. When applying oil varnish you should wear a respirator. As far as durability, oil varnish is more flexible and chips less. Spirit is easier to build quickly and to touch up. You can't go wrong with the products by Hammerl; over here they are sold by International Violin and Metropolitan Music. Any oil varnish you buy will require some thinning. Hammerl's tints work well, and mix right into the varnish, but plan on 10-20 coats to get to the color you want. Buy the best brushes you can find and take great care of them. As the saying goes, "It takes 10 years to make a good violin-maker, then he spends the rest of his life figuring out how to varnish the damn things". Good luck.

Hi Arnold , the advice is much appreciated . I have varnished a door frame and a breadboard before so this should be a breeze - seriously though , Ill get the varnish from the place you recommend and do as much groundwork as possible - I have a cheap violin to practice on first.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Adrian Levi

Hi Arnold , the advice is much appreciated . I have varnished a door frame and a breadboard before so this should be a breeze - seriously though , Ill get the varnish from the place you recommend and do as much groundwork as possible - I have a cheap violin to practice on first.

In my book, if you can see the work, it has flaws. The more you see, the worse the job is. The more in looks like it 'grew' there, the better the job.

The first key to a good finish is the prep work. Finish or varnish will not cover up sanding scratches. It will amplify them. More mistakes are seen after the finish is on and cures than during or before the finishing process. Such is life..

[Martin Sheridan]

Arnold,
I couldn't agree with you more about your comments on making and varnishing. When I first started I thought that the making part was the hardest, now I think it's the varnishing.

It's too bad that bass was stripped. The original varnish was probably just fine.

If it was revarnished and turned orange, I'm thinking it might have been oil with a red brown color that is fading?

[Adrian Levi]

Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan

Arnold,
I couldn't agree with you more about your comments on making and varnishing. When I first started I thought that the making part was the hardest, now I think it's the varnishing.

It's too bad that bass was stripped. The original varnish was probably just fine.

If varnish it was revarnished and turned orange, I'm thinking it might have been oil with a red brown color that is fading?

the varnish was poorly applied as well as just simply being a crappy color !

[Adrian Levi]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

In my book, if you can see the work, it has flaws. The more you see, the worse the job is. The more in looks like it 'grew' there, the better the job.

The first key to a good finish is the prep work. Finish or varnish will not cover up sanding scratches. It will amplify them. More mistakes are seen after the finish is on and cures than during or before the finishing process. Such is life..

I have noticed that many restorers seem to re finish their basses in darker brown colors ! Can this be to try and hide imperfections ?
Also does antiquing an instrument help hide imperfections ?

What does one do if an old instrument in need of a refin has so many dings on it that it is not possible or even desirable for that matter to fix them ?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Adrian Levi

I have noticed that many restorers seem to re finish their basses in darker brown colors ! Can this be to try and hide imperfections ?
Also does antiquing an instrument help hide imperfections ?

What does one do if an old instrument in need of a refin has so many dings on it that it is not possible or even desirable for that matter to fix them ?

Do not sand out dings. Only strip off the old finish and then apply the ground when startling to apply the finish. Chemically stripping the old finish is 100% better than sanding it off. Then you only have some light scraper marks to remove (hopefully) from lifting off the 'gunk' with something like a small paint scraper.

Do not 'try' to make the bass look new. Knocking down the gloss will help this. Also, some light antiquing tastefully done in the varnish will look better. Here is a bass of mine that was made from 2007-2008, just 2 years ago or so. http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/lott/

You don't have to beat it with chains to help it look old. There is nothing worse than an old bass that looks new..

[Adrian Levi]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Do not sand out dings. Only strip off the old finish and then apply the ground when startling to apply the finish. Chemically stripping the old finish is 100% better than sanding it off. Then you only have some light scraper marks to remove (hopefully) from lifting off the 'gunk' with something like a small paint scraper.

Do not 'try' to make the bass look new. Knocking down the gloss will help this. Also, some light antiquing tastefully done in the varnish will look better. Here is a bass of mine that was made from 2007-2008, just 2 years ago or so. http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/lott/

You don't have to beat it with chains to help it look old. There is nothing worse than an old bass that looks new..

More good advice thanks !
The old finish was removed by chemical stripper .
That bass finish looks very good on that 'Lott' !

[Mike Mandelas]

In a similar case after the chemical stripping i applied a ground named "Imprimitura minerale", bought by **** and after it i stained it with a golden brown stain bought by Hammerl. Prior the staining i applied a gelatin solution 5% in order to have an equal amount of stain everywhere. Then i started the oil varnishing, which took me several hands in order to achieve the proper depth. Between hands i made a light sanding, in order to smooth things out. After the final varnishing i watied for 4 weeks to have it dried and proceeded with a final coating varnish (also by Hammerl). The whole procedure took place during the hot Greek summer, so the drying time between hands was not significantly prolonged.
The final result was better than expected, since i had gathered the appropriate experience varnishing violins. Obviously this bass has not the perfect detail of a varnished La Scala or an Upton but it has a "character" and the sound IMHO has been improved considerably.
Now i'm planning my second venture in revarnishing, waiting for the proper weather conditions.
Mike

[Matthew Tucker]

Dings always look better darker than the main varnish colour, reason being that dings and scratches will usually accumulate dirt. It just looks "right". If you have to cover a scratch or ding you can spend hours trying to match the original and build up the level then cut back to try to achieve a perfect match. But unless you are very skillful you won't get it right. Look at the belt buckle damage on any old bass. Only when it is lighter than the surround does it look bad.