Ken's Corner (Bass Forums Sponsored By KSB)

Go Back   Ken's Corner (Bass Forums Sponsored By KSB) > Double Basses > Strings [DB] > Classical/Arco

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 06-02-2012, 04:48 PM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
Senior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-22-2007
Location: Putnam County, NY
Posts: 453
Arnold Schnitzer is on a distinguished road
Default

I think on a dark sounding bass there is nothing louder or more defined-sounding. But you better have great bow technique, a terrific bow, and a gob of sticky rosin.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-02-2012, 05:45 PM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
I think on a dark sounding bass there is nothing louder or more defined-sounding. But you better have great bow technique, a terrific bow, and a gob of sticky rosin.
Ok, the Hart, my Lipkins, Bryant or Fetique, sticky rosin of sorts and a bow arm that almost never tires..

I used them decades ago on my old Italian but I don't know if they will work on the Hart.

I did not like Evah weichs, Velvets or the new Flex Dlx on the Hart of the ones I remember I tried and took off almost as fast or faster than they went on. On my Lamy, I have 3 Evah weichs and a Spiro E. The E is easier to bow than the Evahs and darker sounding as well as more focused and powerful. Maybe?
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-02-2012, 10:16 PM
Bin Hire's Avatar
Bin Hire Bin Hire is offline
Senior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 09-22-2010
Location: Lower Hutt
Posts: 0
Bin Hire is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
I think on a dark sounding bass there is nothing louder or more defined-sounding. But you better have great bow technique, a terrific bow, and a gob of sticky rosin.
Sorry Arnold, I really respect your great experience but, I have bowed spiro reds and they didn't seem particularly hard to bow. Mind you, I must be honest and say that I have never had a set on my own bass. Maybe it is time to try them?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-03-2012, 09:27 AM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
Senior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-22-2007
Location: Putnam County, NY
Posts: 453
Arnold Schnitzer is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bin Hire View Post
Sorry Arnold, I really respect your great experience but, I have bowed spiro reds and they didn't seem particularly hard to bow. Mind you, I must be honest and say that I have never had a set on my own bass. Maybe it is time to try them?
I get it. When I was a classical bass student I also played jazz, lounge and wedding gigs, so I had reds on my bass. (Back then there were really only 2 or 3 metal string choices.) My arco teacher was constantly on my case to get those "chainsaws" off my bass. But I developed decent enough bow technique to pull a reasonable sound. However, compared to modern damped arco strings like BelCanto or Kaplan or Flexicor, Spiros can be very tricky for someone who did not start out with them.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-03-2012, 12:26 PM
Alex Verbree Alex Verbree is offline
Junior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 08-20-2010
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Posts: 7
Alex Verbree is on a distinguished road
Default

I use spirocore lower strings on my Upton, And I enjoy them (classical playing). at first, they were very bright, but they have now calmed down a bit. I have a personal preference for using brighter strings on the bottom to help with low range definition, so they suit me just fine, and in terms of bowing i have no difficulty, and i don't consider myself to have the most fantastic of bow arms.


just my $0.02


alex
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-03-2012, 12:54 PM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
I get it. When I was a classical bass student I also played jazz, lounge and wedding gigs, so I had reds on my bass. (Back then there were really only 2 or 3 metal string choices.) My arco teacher was constantly on my case to get those "chainsaws" off my bass. But I developed decent enough bow technique to pull a reasonable sound. However, compared to modern damped arco strings like BelCanto or Kaplan or Flexicor, Spiros can be very tricky for someone who did not start out with them.
When I had my old Czech/German bass in the early '70s, my friend Victor Venegas told me I needed Flexocors to Bow as I was using Red's. So, I got them (they were like the 92s, reddish/maroon silk) and they sounded dead on my bass with Pizz so, I took them off and stayed with Red's. My next bass and basses I got one after another, my WBW Wilfer from Juzek, Bernardel and Tirol, ALL with Red's and I learned the Dragonetti, Eccles and all my classical training with these basses. In 1973/4 I got my old Italian, selling off the other basses in the process one by one, the old Czech gone first, I put the Reds on the Italian and never looked back. I sometimes tried other strings later on like Rotosouns synthetic Orchestra strings, no longer made but similar in my mind to Obligatos and later the Labella steels for Orchestra which I helped in the testing developments but, always went back to Reds. Homer Mensch had a mix of Spiros on his Italian, with regular, weich and solos to make up his set when that bass came to sale. So, I did see at least one other bowing professional using Sriros.

My only concern here is how they will sound on my bass, the Hart. I have no problem bowing them but, the sound they have is what they have. That, I can't change. I do however want to find out if or how many people currently use then for Orchestra regardless of where they are in the world. For Pizz, I have been able to play Jazz on just about any of my basses with all sorts of Bowing strings. Maybe it's my set-up or my technique or what I like to hear but I am a one string per bass kinda guy. What ever is on the bass, I do everything with.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-03-2012, 12:59 PM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Verbree View Post
I use spirocore lower strings on my Upton, And I enjoy them (classical playing). at first, they were very bright, but they have now calmed down a bit. I have a personal preference for using brighter strings on the bottom to help with low range definition, so they suit me just fine, and in terms of bowing i have no difficulty, and i don't consider myself to have the most fantastic of bow arms.


just my $0.02


alex
One day a new sub comes into the section with a smallish old dark varnished Italian bass and I looked over at his strings. G/D Flex (? 92 or orig) and E/A Spiros. They sounded fine. A year or so earlier another guy with a large Italian had Flex g/d/a and Red Spiro Ext. E/C. Last year I had a bass in here with 3 Orig Flex and a Solo Spiro (red/yellow) ext. E/C.

So, I have seen them in use on the bottom and in mixed sets but rarely have I seem them recently with all Reds.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-04-2012, 09:39 AM
Scott Pope Scott Pope is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-23-2011
Location: Missouri
Posts: 79
Scott Pope is on a distinguished road
Default

Ken, I didn't mean to be off topic. Your main question: the difference in feel between the 3/4 and the 4/4 Spiro mittels: according to the numbers, the 3/4 3885 set, on a @106 cm mensure bass, compared to the 4/4 S42 set strung on the same bass, might feel a little bit stiffer, but hardly noticable, assuming the bass is setup with the proper overlength to the tailpiece, and the pegbox geometry being able accomodate either string.

I only posted the numbers to get a broader perspective, and to remind everyone about all the current different choices now available for Spiros.

Thank you very, very much for the history of the reverse stagger tuners. I've also swapped out which string goes to which tuner to lessen the stress on the E string break over the nut and to better seat the G string to avoid "twang" as well.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-04-2012, 11:55 AM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Cool ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pope View Post
Ken, I didn't mean to be off topic. Your main question: the difference in feel between the 3/4 and the 4/4 Spiro mittels: according to the numbers, the 3/4 3885 set, on a @106 cm mensure bass, compared to the 4/4 S42 set strung on the same bass, might feel a little bit stiffer, but hardly noticable, assuming the bass is setup with the proper overlength to the tailpiece, and the pegbox geometry being able accomodate either string.

I only posted the numbers to get a broader perspective, and to remind everyone about all the current different choices now available for Spiros.

Thank you very, very much for the history of the reverse stagger tuners. I've also swapped out which string goes to which tuner to lessen the stress on the E string break over the nut and to better seat the G string to avoid "twang" as well.
I thought the main question was the Bowing of the Reds in Orchestra. The tension between 3/4 or 4/4 sets do not matter all that much. Why would one buy strings too long or short for his bass? Plus, each bass has different tensions as well so I am not really concerned with the String numbers as the bass and its set-up will matter more.

Also, I am glad to see you had some positive results moving the strings to different gears. I also think it helps to open up the sound a bit when lengthening the E-string up to the A-string Post.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-04-2012, 06:55 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
Senior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-21-2007
Location: Wainuiomata
Posts: 0
Richard Prowse is on a distinguished road
Default

Sorry Ken, I know this is a little off topic, but...
if I am tossing up between Kaplans and Spiro Reds - I need a good bowing string that also has a reasonable pizz sound (I don't want a spongy pizz). You've used Kaplans; should I, in your opinion, go for reds or Kaplans?
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 06-04-2012, 11:02 PM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Cool humm??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Prowse View Post
Sorry Ken, I know this is a little off topic, but...
if I am tossing up between Kaplans and Spiro Reds - I need a good bowing string that also has a reasonable pizz sound (I don't want a spongy pizz). You've used Kaplans; should I, in your opinion, go for reds or Kaplans?
I think it depends on your bass. The two basses I tried the Kaplans on are old deep sounding basses, the Hart and the Marconcini school bass. I have never tried Spiro reds on either of those basses.

I will say this thought. Today, I put a set of Spiro Solos (red/yellow) on the Marconcini. I bought them a year ago or so and just never had the chance to use them on anything. Getting back on this 'Reds' idea, I thought it would be interesting to try the Solos on a bass that I have fresh Kaplans on to compare them in preparation for trying the Reds on the Hart.

So, between the Kaplans and the Solo Spiros on the Marconcini, the Kaplans are deeper sounding but in the distance, the Spiro Yellows are louder and sweeter sounding, on THAT Bass. The G string on the solos is much thinner in diameter. The other 3 strings are close or nearly identical in size. The tension and type of sound is totally different.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 06-05-2012, 01:54 PM
Sam Sherry Sam Sherry is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-22-2007
Location: Portland, Maine
Posts: 53
Sam Sherry is on a distinguished road
Default

That chart is cool for sure. I love the Deutsche ad-man's copy:

"Less inertia, longer period of musical vibration."
Your average bassist would say, "Fast voice, unparalleled sustain."

"Equally effective when playing arco or pizzicato."
As opposed to what? There are a paucity of other choices beyond "arco or pizzicato" and I shudder to think of Ken's Hart suffering from most of them!

In any event, meandering back toward the topic at hand: Ken, I'm sure you won't forget that if you're headed toward orchestral work on Spiros there's no particular reason to install a new set!
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 06-05-2012, 02:31 PM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Sherry View Post
That chart is cool for sure. I love the Deutsche ad-man's copy:

"Less inertia, longer period of musical vibration."
Your average bassist would say, "Fast voice, unparalleled sustain."

"Equally effective when playing arco or pizzicato."
As opposed to what? There are a paucity of other choices beyond "arco or pizzicato" and I shudder to think of Ken's Hart suffering from most of them!

In any event, meandering back toward the topic at hand: Ken, I'm sure you won't forget that if you're headed toward orchestral work on Spiros there's no particular reason to install a new set!
Well yes but first off, I need a set with no internal damage completely healthy within the windings and second, a set with an Extension E/C string. Third, it is only June now and I wont have a concert till about October, about four months from now.

So, if I put on a brand new set, I have time to break them in.

As far as bright strings so, I tried a set of Solo Orig. Flatchromes on my Storioni one night. Bright but good sounding. Also, yesterday as a pre-test I put some 'brand new' Solo Spiros (red/yellow) on the Marconcini school bass and they are nice as well. Bright they are but I didn't run away from them.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 06-06-2012, 01:35 AM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Cool Reds on the Hart...

Ok, having the Solo set on one bass I think is enough for me to test over the Summer. Being that I had them in stock already, it was easy to try them on something without having to order them in. I got them last year just before the prices were about to go up so not I will see what they do.

Tonight I put a set of Jargar Dolce/green silked strings that I got last year as well but haven't had the need to try them. I took off the Kaplans from the Hart and replaced them one string at a time. Each string going on felt like the bass was moving closer to the sound I like most. These are lighter in gauge than the medium/blue Jargar set I tried last year but do not feel or sound thin like other solo sets do. I will have the Summer to play on them and decide if they stay on for the season starting in the fall.

So, instead of going from the new Kaplans to Red's on the Hart, I went to Jargar Dolce's. That's about as far a tonal difference between two strings that are on the market. Spiros and Jargars, complete opposites. I think the Hart is destined to be a smooth, deep, dark sounding bass rather than what it might turn into with Red's. For now, I will never know until that day comes when I have time to try them and I don't have any sets 'already purchased to try out'. I am not closing the door or burning any bridges here (I love the Bridge on the Hart, lol), I am just staying on my normal path of tone for that bass.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 06-07-2012, 01:26 AM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
Senior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-21-2007
Location: Wainuiomata
Posts: 0
Richard Prowse is on a distinguished road
Default

The Kaplans are off! (sorry, used a Smilie - out of character)
Well, here's my dilema. I have EP weichs on and have a recording to do in about four weeks. The EPs will do the job nicely, but I also want to get a string that will bow faster. Ken, I was hoping that you'd be really happy with the Kaplans and, perhaps, suggest that they were also a reasonable pizz string. I don't have time to count on breaking in Reds - it takes about two weeks here to get strings from Lemur music and, because of the internet string thing, most music shops aren't carrying DB strings. There is a guy in Auckland but he charges an arm and a ley; anyway, it's almost as quick to get strings from the US of A.
So, how did you feel about the Kaplans overall? Do they handle fast bowing - say as in Monti's Czardas; and what is their pizz feel like?
I wait in anticipation.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 06-07-2012, 01:54 AM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Cool Fast bowing..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Prowse View Post
The Kaplans are off! (sorry, used a Smilie - out of character)
Well, here's my dilema. I have EP weichs on and have a recording to do in about four weeks. The EPs will do the job nicely, but I also want to get a string that will bow faster. Ken, I was hoping that you'd be really happy with the Kaplans and, perhaps, suggest that they were also a reasonable pizz string. I don't have time to count on breaking in Reds - it takes about two weeks here to get strings from Lemur music and, because of the internet string thing, most music shops aren't carrying DB strings. There is a guy in Auckland but he charges an arm and a ley; anyway, it's almost as quick to get strings from the US of A.
So, how did you feel about the Kaplans overall? Do they handle fast bowing - say as in Monti's Czardas; and what is their pizz feel like?
I wait in anticipation.
Richard, I did Beethoven's 9th with the them, New World Symphony and a Pop's concert doing mostly Pizz and all the Amp work in the section while the other 3 basses just watched for a good part of the tunes I was amp'ed. Three concerts, three different orchestras, same bass (Hart) and same strings (Kaplans). Bows? Lipkins on the 9th but don't remember what I used on the others. Maybe the Mattei for the Pops that I hardly bowed on and probably but can't remember, the Lipkins on the New World.

I think I gave them a real good workout and test. Find a copy of the 9th and see how fast some of the parts are. I think the Kaplans did just fine. If not, they would have come off the bass as soon as they went on.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 06-07-2012, 02:00 AM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
Senior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-21-2007
Location: Wainuiomata
Posts: 0
Richard Prowse is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Richard, I did Beethoven's 9th with the them, New World Symphony and a Pop's concert doing mostly Pizz and all the Amp work in the section while the other 3 basses just watched for a good part of the tunes I was amp'ed. Three concerts, three different orchestras, same bass (Hart) and same strings (Kaplans). Bows? Lipkins on the 9th but don't remember what I used on the others. Maybe the Mattei for the Pops that I hardly bowed on and probably but can't remember, the Lipkins on the New World.

I think I gave them a real good workout and test. Find a copy of the 9th and see how fast some of the parts are. I think the Kaplans did just fine. If not, they would have come off the bass as soon as they went on.
Thanks Ken, I appreciate that. Sounds like I need to try these Kaplans.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 06-12-2012, 10:19 AM
Joshua phelps
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Spiros & belcantos

I remember ken raising an eyebrow to me saying I enjoyed spirocore reds for arco playing a while back haha. I've been using a set of belcantos per recommendation from ken (which I love) for the past six months. I think kens description of the spiros being edgier & belcantos being smoother is spot on. Sometimes I feel like these 2 sets would be suited for different composers work rather than a jack of all trades set. I miss my spiros sometimes (which I put on a Romanian flatback I rebuilt & sold to a jazz player) for getting a nice beefy forte on Beethoven pieces. I use black hair & med oak rosin always on both sets by the way.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 06-12-2012, 11:58 PM
Eric Hochberg Eric Hochberg is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-02-2007
Location: Winnetka, IL
Posts: 189
Eric Hochberg is on a distinguished road
Default

Speaking with my luthier today, who works on many of the basses in the Chicago Symphony, I was told that the strings of choice for many years in the orchestra were EA Spiro Red and DG Flexocores. This is what Joe Guastafeste preferred and the other bassists followed suit.
__________________
Eric Hochberg
erichochberg.com
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 06-13-2012, 12:10 AM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg View Post
Speaking with my luthier today, who works on many of the basses in the Chicago Symphony, I was told that the strings of choice for many years in the orchestra were EA Spiro Red and DG Flexocores. This is what Joe Guastafeste preferred and the other bassists followed suit.
I have heard of and seen that string combo used. But, it's only 2 of the 4 strings in the set. Do they still use that set over there?
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2007 - Ken Smith Basses, LTD. (All Rights Reserved)